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Post by crown on Jul 5, 2023 17:34:46 GMT -5
Donner was going to finish SII simultaneously with STM but Lester convinced him to stop shooting SII so we can blame Lester for that one. Plus you’re forgetting one crucial thing….. why would Superman give up his powers for Rat Lois? Superman would have only given up his powers for Donner Unsworth Lois. And I don’t buy for one moment that Kidder looked different because of “dental work”. That was just a euphemism for heavy drug use that wasted Kidder away until she was barely 80 pounds when filming recommenced on SII. Kidder was so frighteningly gaunt but Lester just threw a rat-wig on her and started filming. Donner would have made Kidder get off the drugs and eat! That's true regarding Lester's decision to halt production on SII. According to Petrou, in his Making Of STM book, Donner enthusiastically agreed to the "moratorium" on SII. To be fair, Donner was way's behind on the production schedule of STM, thanks to time dedicated to SII during that original back to back shoot. Because of the ground breaking effects work involved, R&D was chewing up time and money on how to make Supes fly.....that everything else was being slowed down as result. It's unfortunate but that was the reality of the situation. As a hypothesis: Perhaps the only way to have got round it may have been to have delayed STM for a late 1979/summer of 1980 release.......thereby finishing both films(or at least pretty much 95% of SII minus a few unfinished effects). Those few unfinished effects for SII could then have been completed with calmness and serenity in just a few months in time for a release during the Christmas period of 1980. Dunno....but sounds like a reasonable plan from humble little Dejan's point of view! Problem would have been the money men.....eager to see a return on their investment as soon as possible. One has to remember that STM was originally scheduled for a summer 1978 release. Warners and co were already slightly pissed off that they missed that original summer date. Hence the eagerness to suspend SII and get on with finishing STM. As for Kidder: She had actually been dating Mank during the shoot for STM and SII. At some point in either late 78' or 79'......they split. Not sure whether it was amicable at the time or not.......but that could have been a potential hot potato.....if Donner and Mank had come back to finish SII in late 79'. Just imagine Donner directing Kidder during that original Honey Moon Hotel sequence as originally scripted by Mank: Donner: "Ok.....and action!" Kidder: "You are right Mank,I mean Clark, I mean Mank......I mean Clark ......I bet my life instead of yours......and don't fall down as you are just going to have get up again" Donner: "Cut!!!!" Kidder: "Look Di*k.....if you don't get that cheating 2 faced bas***d of a script writer off this set right now.....I'm gonna knock my own teeth out....right now!" Mank: "Margot...you rat!" Donner: "I wish we kept Superman II in a state of suspension!" So Kidder was dating both Donner and Mank during STM and SII and dated Richard Prior in S3! Begs the question did she and Mark Pillow ever….. Anyway point still stands that Lester was in the position to tell Kidder to get off the crack cocaine that had turned her into a skeleton and had her eat steak and ice cream until she filled out again. Lester choose not to do this and instead said “Yeah Kidder is a skeleton but hey I got this here wig made from a rat carcass I’ll just throw that on Kidders skull and she’ll be fine!” Meanwhile we the audience were forced to accept that Superman would give up his powers for Rat Lois. And that my friend is where the Lester Cut falls apart. Just look at the close up of Kidder when she said she’s going to change into something more comfortable… I can see her sunken eye sockets! Supes should have offered her the whole soufflé. Also don't you think it's a bit coincidental that it was Lester who had the idea to stop shooting SII and HE was the one to ultimately take over?
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 5, 2023 12:00:15 GMT -5
Dejan: Roar! Where is the woman!? Crown: Give it up you’ll never… wait are you talking about Rat Lois? If that’s the case she over there you can have her. Dejan to Rat Lois: Come I want you by my side! Rat Lois: Seriously? Don’t you want pretty Donner Lois lit by Geoff Unsworth? Dejan: No! I like my rat Lois! Now I’m gonna fly you into outer space! lol! To be fair, if you go to SupermanII.com: www.supermanii.com/articles/There is an article from October 9th 1979(Superman II On Launch Pad). In it Reeve says:
So even if Donner had come back to finish in the fall of 1979, he still would have faced(no pun intended!) the same problem with how Kidder looked.Could he have done a better job than Lester.....that's an unknown because Unsworth(who Kidder adored) had already passed away. For the record, Unsworth worked with Lester on Royal Flash in 1975....and did a great job lighting Britt Ekland. I can only speak for meself......but I never noticed those differences regarding how Kidder looked, on my first couple of viewings in the cinema of SII, in 1981 and 1982.(Mind you I was only 7 years of age!). It was only when I finally got my own copy on home video in 1983.....and after repeated viewings , that I began to notice those discrepancies in her appearance from shot to shot. Also worth mentioning that back then in the early 80s,we were all rockin' either VHS,BetaMax or V2000( a video system only ever sold in Europe by Phillips - which is what I had). The poor resoloution of those formats probably did not help in our endevours to elucidate differences that cropped up between scenes. Laserdisc owners may have fared better, due that format's slightly better playback performance. But even so.....all movies back then were cropped to 4:3 for home video viewing.....so for example, scenes in Superman II that featured differences in the fortress between Lester and Donner would have been a little harder to spot. Once the DVD revolution began in the late 90s/early 2000s, then it was game on for eagled eyed fans to acertain all the inconsistencies between the 2 director's work......and it could it be done in widescreen(16:9)!. Will have to peruse the reviews from 1981 to see if any of the critics noticed the incongruencies in Kidder's appearance. Of note though, is that a lot of critics agreed that her performance was better in SII, relative to STM. Still all opinions of course......but the aforementioned observations concur with my own personal views.....that her performance under Lester was more mature than under Donner. Donner was going to finish SII simultaneously with STM but Lester convinced him to stop shooting SII so we can blame Lester for that one. Plus you’re forgetting one crucial thing….. why would Superman give up his powers for Rat Lois? Superman would have only given up his powers for Donner Unsworth Lois. And I don’t buy for one moment that Kidder looked different because of “dental work”. That was just a euphemism for heavy drug use that wasted Kidder away until she was barely 80 pounds when filming recommenced on SII. Kidder was so frighteningly gaunt but Lester just threw a rat-wig on her and started filming. Donner would have made Kidder get off the drugs and eat!
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Post by crown on Jul 5, 2023 3:38:39 GMT -5
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Post by crown on Jul 4, 2023 2:22:50 GMT -5
What if Lois had taken up Rocky on his offer to buy her something to eat? What would Clark's reaction have been if he came back from the restroom and Lois told him "Hey Clark this nice man named Rocky has offered to pay for my meal!" Would Clark be happy about Lois getting free food? Maybe Clark would ask Rocky if he would pay for his meal too?
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Post by crown on Jul 3, 2023 21:11:02 GMT -5
I can respect someone preferring the Lester Cut over the Donner cut because the Donner cut isn’t a finished film. What I can’t respect is someone believing that the Lester cut is superior to the SII that Donner would have finished. So because of this, I’m going to have to pound you into the moon. Dejan hoists himself up from the hole on the moon that Crown thumped him into........finds the Lester Flag and places it in upright position! Dejan: Roar! Where is the woman!? Crown: Give it up you’ll never… wait are you talking about Rat Lois? If that’s the case she over there you can have her. Dejan to Rat Lois: Come I want you by my side! Rat Lois: Seriously? Don’t you want pretty Donner Lois lit by Geoff Unsworth? Dejan: No! I like my rat Lois! Now I’m gonna fly you into outer space!
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Post by crown on Jul 3, 2023 12:56:49 GMT -5
Salkinds: “I’ll talk ya that man is a miracle!” (Allows Lester to make Superman 3). Oh I guess Lester wasn’t so great afterall. I guess without the advantage of standing on the shoulders of Donner he sucks!” hehe There is hardly a filmaker out there who has not suffered from some form of inconstincencyenitis! For those directors who shot stuff back to back: Zemekis could not maintain form for Back To The Future 2 & 3. The Wachowskis were happless within Matrix 2 & 3. Jackson was highly inconsistent within The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy(Fellowship was a snoozefest,Two Towers was better,Return Of The King was bloated and flattered to deceive - has also not aged well at all)and let's not even mention the debacle that was The Hobbit Trilogy! Yates struggled with Harry Potter's Deathly Hallows Parts 1 & 2(I think both of them are sh*t....but that's my opinion!) Verbinski messed up Pirates 2 & 3 One could argue that the Russos managed to hold true for Endgame and Infinity War.....I am a fan of both, but these movies are heavily dependent on being familiar with pretty much all the Marvel stuff that came before.....or they ain't gonna mean a whole lot(IMHO). So, using those examples as templates......there is no guarantee that had Donner finished in 79', that it would have been an automatic home run. Also, given the fact that there was a break in shooting , neccessitating a resumption in the latter part of 1979......how much would that gap have effected the consistency of the overall product? Also worth baring in mind that Donner would have been without Brando,Barry,Unsworth,Bowies and Weevers, all key players for STM's quality, had he been allowed to resume in 79'. For directors who returned to the same projects after time away: Zemekis failed to recapture the magic of Back To The Future 1. Ditto for The Wachowskis with Matrix 2 & 3 , relative to Matrix 1. Jackson all but pissed over whatever integrity he created for the Original Lord Of The Rings Trilogy....with the Hobbit Trilogy. Lucas has the same problem with the prequel trilogy(in the sense of being unable to match the original Star Wars). Scott made a joke of the Alien franchise with Prometheus and Covenenant. Spielberg came unstuck a couple of times with Last Crusade and definitely with Crystal Skull. Coppola made a lackluster Godfather Part 3. Favreau screwed Iron Man 2. Wheddon strugged with Age Of Ultron. heck.....look at Stallone with Rocky's II,III and IV! Donner himself ultimately missed the mark with Lethal Weapon 3 & 4(relative to 1 & 2). So whilst I agree that Superman III was not as good as I and II........it's nothing unsual(unfortunately) that Lester failed to maintain consistency from a qualatitive aspect. To be fair Lester did shoot The 3 & 4 Musky's as one movie.....then divided it in to 2 in post production. I think both are great , and favour 4 over 3(CAM prefers 3 over 4). Quite an accomplishment considering this was done in the pre CG era. So it's all opinions at the at end of the day.....but hopefully you will understand my reasoning.....if not my conclusion! Anyways, respect your opinion dude. I can respect someone preferring the Lester Cut over the Donner cut because the Donner cut isn’t a finished film. What I can’t respect is someone believing that the Lester cut is superior to the SII that Donner would have finished. So because of this, I’m going to have to pound you into the moon.
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Post by crown on Jul 2, 2023 21:24:23 GMT -5
They could have dubbed a line of Ron saying "we only have coke". Also Lois wasn't ordering a healthy meal. A cheeseburger with EVERYTHING on it and an order of fries. That side salad doesn't make it suddenly healthy. You gotta remember bud...... The diner scene as filmed by Donner was originally intended to be appended to that raunchy sex scene at the fortress that Mank wrote (pretty much in the same clumsy manner that he instilled in the James Bond flicks):
So Lois was knackered after all that carnal activity...hence the cheeseburger and coke! Perhaps Ron could have inquired if Lois’s excessive food order was due to recent carnal activity on her part? Seems like a perfectly reasonable question that he could have asked her. Otherwise why should he force Annie to make all that food?
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Post by crown on Jul 2, 2023 19:28:54 GMT -5
Salkinds: The films is now incomplete! We lost half the film! We got to have new cheap footage! There's a pile of manure 5 miles from here but we haven't got a 5 mile camera! Lesterman: Where's this shiit? Salkinds: That a way! Lesterman flies off with his camera to finish shooting Superman II LesterMan returns with newly shot material, now on ice. Drops it on the raging, destructive inferno below , that is the incomplete Donner footage! Iced up new LesterMan footage quells the uncontrollable fires of the Donner scenes(Niagra auditions/turning back the world) . Salkinds: "I 'll tell ya.......that man is a miracle"! Salkinds: “I’ll talk ya that man is a miracle!” (Allows Lester to make Superman 3). Oh I guess Lester wasn’t so great afterall. I guess without the advantage of standing on the shoulders of Donner he sucks!”
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Post by crown on Jul 2, 2023 4:09:42 GMT -5
Donner Cut jumps out of the acid and blows it into Lester Cut. Donner Cut: What's the matter Lester too warm for ya huh!? You been on my nerves for a long time! (Grabs large piece of metal) Stupid boring Paris terrorists! (SMACK!) Lame Orange Juice jokes (SMACK!) Goofy East Houston hillbillies (SMACK!) Superman throwing a cellophane S (SMACK!) LesterMan: "Chief......how can I help?" Salkinds: "Get this man a producer's job...(turns round)........oh it's you.....forget the producer's job" LesterMan: "How bad is it?" Salkinds: "My god LesterMan........it's a nightmare.....everything in there is either explosive(looks at Niagra Falls audition tapes)....inflammable(looks at Brando scenes) or worse(looks at turning back the world footage) LesterMan takes off. Salkinds: "What's he gonna do?........excise all the incomplete scenes.....one at a time?" LesterMan lifts up funnel:saves Lex and Otis prison escape, Villains on Moon,White House and Diner scenes. Villains taking over the world script, Brando ,Daily Planet jumping out the window and back at the Daily Planet after turning back the world scenes blow up/burn down in fire! Salkinds: The films is now incomplete! We lost half the film! We got to have new cheap footage! There's a pile of manure 5 miles from here but we haven't got a 5 mile camera! Lesterman: Where's this shiit? Salkinds: That a way! Lesterman flies off with his camera to finish shooting Superman II
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Post by crown on Jul 2, 2023 2:49:20 GMT -5
Jumps out of trash compactor and strangles Lester II. Stands and triumphantly opens shirt to reveal Donner's SII! Flies out of the junkyard with the John Williams music roaring and undoes Rat Lois, Parody Planet-Houston Zod, and Guy talking on knocked over phone booth. CAM: "Would you look at that!" Flies past CAM and waves at him! Dejan: So you finally showed your true colors! Lester Cut: "I can give as good as I get!" Donner Cut: "Oh yeah....come on.......COME ON!" Lester cut head buts incomplete and poorly edited Daily Planet jump out of the window scene,crass toilet humor of Lex, Otis and Eve ,shoddily put together auditions of Reeve and Kidder ,over hyped and under peformed Brando scenes and turning back the world nonsense........into a resevoir of acid! Donner Cut jumps out of the acid and blows it into Lester Cut. Donner Cut: What's the matter Lester too warm for ya huh!? You been on my nerves for a long time! (Grabs large piece of metal) Stupid boring Paris terrorists! (SMACK!) Lame Orange Juice jokes (SMACK!) Goofy East Houston hillbillies (SMACK!) Superman throwing a cellophane S (SMACK!)
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Post by crown on Jul 2, 2023 0:06:07 GMT -5
Do you actually believe that Lesters Superman II is better than Donners Superman II had he been allowed to complete it? Because well, if that’s you’re opinion then imma knock you into a vat of acid and throw a bunch of tires around you. "You always wanted Donner's SII to fly, Crown." "Well now's it's chance!" (Hurls Donner Cut DVD into the Lester Compressor) Jumps out of trash compactor and strangles Lester II. Stands and triumphantly opens shirt to reveal Donner's SII! Flies out of the junkyard with the John Williams music roaring and undoes Rat Lois, Parody Planet-Houston Zod, and Guy talking on knocked over phone booth. CAM: "Would you look at that!" Flies past CAM and waves at him! Dejan: So you finally showed your true colors!
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Post by crown on Jul 1, 2023 13:14:54 GMT -5
And.... Richard Donner is better. Do you actually believe that Lesters Superman II is better than Donners Superman II had he been allowed to complete it? Because well, if that’s you’re opinion then imma knock you into a vat of acid and throw a bunch of tires around you.
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Post by crown on Jun 29, 2023 1:09:54 GMT -5
You notice that when Superman loses his powers his “Superman self” seems to stay in the chamber and fades away while Clark emerges. I always wondered if Supermans consciousness was trapped in the Chamber and he was left there to die while a separate clone “Clark” stepped out of the chamber. Just like the movie the Prestige maybe Superman didn’t know if he would be the man trapped in the chamber or the man who walked out of it? Thoughts? I always wondered if the villains went into the chamber, if they would have emerged all wearing white shirts and black trousers, under the Lester effect. Would have been funny if the lights went red in the fortress and all of a sudden the villains were wearing white shirts and black pants. Zod would have been like "WTF.... this is no style at all!"
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Post by crown on Jun 28, 2023 12:02:23 GMT -5
Why can’t they use AI technology to bring back Reeve? Can we use AI to create CGI Reeve? Absolutely they did it with Harrison Ford so they can do it with Reeve. Maybe you can write a letter to Mr. Thau and ask him to please try to do it?
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Post by crown on Jun 28, 2023 3:47:23 GMT -5
Why can’t they use AI technology to bring back Reeve? Haven't they done that for The Flash? I think poor ol' Reeve is turning in his grave(oh wait.....think he was cremated!). He can’t turn in his grave. He was paralyzed.
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Post by crown on Jun 28, 2023 3:43:45 GMT -5
So after giving up his powers for Lois only to be unceremoniously dumped right after when Lois could have done it BEFOREHAND… Clark wouldn’t go into an uncontrollable rage? Wouldn’t you have punched Lois if you were in Clarks position? Maybe Clark would say: "I can give as good as I get"......and headbutt Lois in the chest.....into a resevoir of acid. Hey..it's just a hyothesis. Maybe it was for the best that Clark didn’t punch Lois. Once Clark punched Lois, then what? You’d have a powerless Clark, and Lois with a bloody nose stuck at the fortress and it would be awkward af. Clark and Lois would begin to freeze to death and maybe have to share the remains of the soufflé to keep warm. Then Clark would try to figure out a way to get out of the fortress to call for help (as he’s no longer able to simply fly out) and would trip and fall face first into a pile of poop (from when MS Tesmacher “found” the bathroom earlier).
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Post by crown on Jun 28, 2023 2:45:35 GMT -5
Then what would Clarks reaction have been had Lois dumped him after the depower? Clark's reaction would be: "Lois........I don't know what to say" So after giving up his powers for Lois only to be unceremoniously dumped right after when Lois could have done it BEFOREHAND… Clark wouldn’t go into an uncontrollable rage? Wouldn’t you have punched Lois if you were in Clarks position?
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Post by crown on Jun 28, 2023 2:20:44 GMT -5
Am I the only one that feels a GIANT 'Henry Cavill' vibe from Coranswet? (I liked Cavill though the writing for him was all wrong imo) Hmm....not sure.....possibly, now that you mention it. Just checked his resume' and he has been to Julliard.....so his acting has to be of a decent standard. Routh was a model(and his acting reflected that - sorry CAM- I know you like the guy!).....and Cavill's attraction was more for his looks....than his acting. Welling and Hoelchin are/were good TV Supermen. Caine was a good soap opera Superman(sorry- was never a fan of that show). But maybe Coranswet might be the guy to finally give Reeve a run for his money on the acting front. Why can’t they use AI technology to bring back Reeve?
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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 22:41:13 GMT -5
CGI would have been necessary. Terrence Stamp Sarah Douglas and Jack O'Halloran may have been able to hang out in the Oval Office and chew bubble gum but more extreme enterprise such as actively "ruling the world" would have required CGI (villains). Well…. CGI humans I don’t think really came about until around/after Jurassic Park/Terminator 2…. I think what I miss most is how Donner would have made Zod’s speech atop the Washington monument a memorable epic one… rather than the downsized small scale speech in Houston. How was Zod supposed to stand atop the Washington monument? The top is pointy not a flat surface. Also no one would be able to even SEE Zod at that height. Maybe Lester realized this?
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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 22:37:49 GMT -5
You would never hit a women unless it was this one unique circumstance. Name a believable reaction from Clark of not punching Lois. You can’t because it doesn’t exist. Clark/Superman/Kalel had a high threshold for not hitting women.....look at how he refused to hit Ursa , despite numerous provocations: She called out his name ,providing a distraction so as to allow Non to get a thump in. She tried to bash him with a flagpole. She threw a manhole into his midrif. She then threw a bus at him. She(along with Zod and Non) tried to fry him with her laser beam from her finger. She even had the audacity to try a karate kick at his Super hologram. Jeez....what more do ya need! Despite all those temptations, Clark held back like a true gentleman.....he allowed Lois to punch Ursa instead. True class. Then what would Clarks reaction have been had Lois dumped him after the depower?
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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 18:16:37 GMT -5
Sorry Corensweetie. Its Reeve or bust!
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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 18:12:23 GMT -5
You’re dodging the question. If Lois had rejected Clark right after he gave up his powers for her what would have been his reaction if not punching her?? That’s the only plausible reaction and everyone on this forum would have done the same. "What?........you'd hit a woman!" You would never hit a women unless it was this one unique circumstance. Name a believable reaction from Clark of not punching Lois. You can’t because it doesn’t exist.
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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 15:57:08 GMT -5
You notice that when Superman loses his powers his “Superman self” seems to stay in the chamber and fades away while Clark emerges. I always wondered if Supermans consciousness was trapped in the Chamber and he was left there to die while a separate clone “Clark” stepped out of the chamber. Just like the movie the Prestige maybe Superman didn’t know if he would be the man trapped in the chamber or the man who walked out of it? Thoughts?
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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 15:20:20 GMT -5
Well...... I always hated the exchange between Lois and Clark even on first view of SII right after the depowering as directed by Lester. The performances (and the way it was shot/edited didn't help) seemed very 'off'... we know that Reeve and Kidder didn't really get along, but Donner was able to make us believe that they loved one another in STM... didn't really feel that in this scene. It was clear to me that sentimentality just isn't in Lester's DNA. This rewritten exchange is a bit misogynistic, but it seems to have more plausibility than the theatrical scene as it was in the theatres! lol Have to respectfully disagree(as always!). Lester had very cleverly written a few scenes where Lois was already warming up to Clark: In the office: Lois: "What else are friends for?". Clark: "Friends huh?". In the hotel: Clark: "Gee....you look very pretty". Lois: "Thank you Clark"(places hand on his shoulder). At the Falls: Clark: "Everybody else is holding hands......maybe we should too" Lois: "Here is my hand Clark......hold it" Back at the hotel after Clark takes off his glasses: Clark: "I don't know why I did that". Lois: "Maybe you did not want to do it with your mind.......but maybe you wanted to do it with your heart". IMHO.....made the relationship much more believable and layered.....so when the time came for Supes to be depowered.....it was more acceptable to Lois that she was truly in love with the guy .....as opposed to what he was(Supes). In fact this point is re-inforced just after the depowering is finished: Lois: "You did all that for me?......I don't know what to say". Clark: "Just say you love me" Lois hugs him. Beautiful recitation from the actors and great directing from Lester. Cinematography looks fantastic too.....more so in 4K. So Lois was ultimately in love with the man because of the sacrifice he made(in giving up his powers). That was a clear break from Mank's rather monolithic and one dimensional charade in his script,where Lois kept pissing all over Clark....whilst being head over heals in love with Supes. It worked for STM.....but had it continued in that vain in SII, had Donner been allowed to finish, it would not have been believable that Lois could point blank accept a depowered Clark as the guy she was always in love with. Lester, having had far more experience with romance in his movie repetoire, than Donner(unless Donner tackled serious romance in his TV stuff?), by that point in the late 70s , noticed the deficiencies in the Mank script and rectified them. That's why most contemporary critics rated the love story as depicted in the theatrical SII as being better or superior to what was seen in STM. You’re dodging the question. If Lois had rejected Clark right after he gave up his powers for her what would have been his reaction if not punching her?? That’s the only plausible reaction and everyone on this forum would have done the same.
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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 4:18:15 GMT -5
It also seems that the filming of the CGI villains going around the world (to rule it) and destroying key monuments was pushed back as well. Probably also because the CGI villains were not as big names and it was important to concentrate on Brando and Hackman. It is, at least, impressive that the script was prescient enough to know that CGI was going to be invented Meh! CGI wasn't necessary to show that scene then. I would have been fine with artistic looking fx even if not 100 percent convincing.... I have to admit- I never thought the STM Krypton miniatures and Hoover Dam miniatures (even under Medding) looked perfect--- though, with all due respect- in the behind the scenes footage with people walking around them, they look astounding. (I just didn't think they shot that well,though probably the best that was possible at the time. Perfect example being the Golden Gate miniature that looks AMAZING in seeing the size of it in photos and with real people, but I wasn't overwhelmed oddly seeing it on the big screen theatrically despite the rest of the whole movie experience being an A+!). CGI would have been necessary. Terrence Stamp Sarah Douglas and Jack O'Halloran may have been able to hang out in the Oval Office and chew bubble gum but more extreme enterprise such as actively "ruling the world" would have required CGI (villains).
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