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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 15:20:20 GMT -5
Well...... I always hated the exchange between Lois and Clark even on first view of SII right after the depowering as directed by Lester. The performances (and the way it was shot/edited didn't help) seemed very 'off'... we know that Reeve and Kidder didn't really get along, but Donner was able to make us believe that they loved one another in STM... didn't really feel that in this scene. It was clear to me that sentimentality just isn't in Lester's DNA. This rewritten exchange is a bit misogynistic, but it seems to have more plausibility than the theatrical scene as it was in the theatres! lol Have to respectfully disagree(as always!). Lester had very cleverly written a few scenes where Lois was already warming up to Clark: In the office: Lois: "What else are friends for?". Clark: "Friends huh?". In the hotel: Clark: "Gee....you look very pretty". Lois: "Thank you Clark"(places hand on his shoulder). At the Falls: Clark: "Everybody else is holding hands......maybe we should too" Lois: "Here is my hand Clark......hold it" Back at the hotel after Clark takes off his glasses: Clark: "I don't know why I did that". Lois: "Maybe you did not want to do it with your mind.......but maybe you wanted to do it with your heart". IMHO.....made the relationship much more believable and layered.....so when the time came for Supes to be depowered.....it was more acceptable to Lois that she was truly in love with the guy .....as opposed to what he was(Supes). In fact this point is re-inforced just after the depowering is finished: Lois: "You did all that for me?......I don't know what to say". Clark: "Just say you love me" Lois hugs him. Beautiful recitation from the actors and great directing from Lester. Cinematography looks fantastic too.....more so in 4K. So Lois was ultimately in love with the man because of the sacrifice he made(in giving up his powers). That was a clear break from Mank's rather monolithic and one dimensional charade in his script,where Lois kept pissing all over Clark....whilst being head over heals in love with Supes. It worked for STM.....but had it continued in that vain in SII, had Donner been allowed to finish, it would not have been believable that Lois could point blank accept a depowered Clark as the guy she was always in love with. Lester, having had far more experience with romance in his movie repetoire, than Donner(unless Donner tackled serious romance in his TV stuff?), by that point in the late 70s , noticed the deficiencies in the Mank script and rectified them. That's why most contemporary critics rated the love story as depicted in the theatrical SII as being better or superior to what was seen in STM. You’re dodging the question. If Lois had rejected Clark right after he gave up his powers for her what would have been his reaction if not punching her?? That’s the only plausible reaction and everyone on this forum would have done the same.
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 4:18:15 GMT -5
It also seems that the filming of the CGI villains going around the world (to rule it) and destroying key monuments was pushed back as well. Probably also because the CGI villains were not as big names and it was important to concentrate on Brando and Hackman. It is, at least, impressive that the script was prescient enough to know that CGI was going to be invented Meh! CGI wasn't necessary to show that scene then. I would have been fine with artistic looking fx even if not 100 percent convincing.... I have to admit- I never thought the STM Krypton miniatures and Hoover Dam miniatures (even under Medding) looked perfect--- though, with all due respect- in the behind the scenes footage with people walking around them, they look astounding. (I just didn't think they shot that well,though probably the best that was possible at the time. Perfect example being the Golden Gate miniature that looks AMAZING in seeing the size of it in photos and with real people, but I wasn't overwhelmed oddly seeing it on the big screen theatrically despite the rest of the whole movie experience being an A+!). CGI would have been necessary. Terrence Stamp Sarah Douglas and Jack O'Halloran may have been able to hang out in the Oval Office and chew bubble gum but more extreme enterprise such as actively "ruling the world" would have required CGI (villains).
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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 4:10:34 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's right to hit a woman. What I'm saying is that anyone would understand Clark punching Lois if she friend-zoned Clark's booty the moment he came of the of the molecular chamber. Lois: I don't know what to say. Clark: Just say you love me. Lois: Well actually I think we should just be friends. You see I never really loved you I was only in love with Superman. Clark: POW! I'LL KNOCK YOUR LIGHTS OUT! Well...... I always hated the exchange between Lois and Clark even on first view of SII right after the depowering as directed by Lester. The performances (and the way it was shot/edited didn't help) seemed very 'off'... we know that Reeve and Kidder didn't really get along, but Donner was able to make us believe that they loved one another in STM... didn't really feel that in this scene. It was clear to me that sentimentality just isn't in Lester's DNA. This rewritten exchange is a bit misogynistic, but it seems to have more plausibility than the theatrical scene as it was in the theatres! lol I'm just saying that no one "approve" of Clark punching Lois but NO ONE would blame him either. Even if Clark was initially arrested for punching Lois the Judge would let him go upon learning why he did it. There is literally no other plausible reaction Clark could have other than punching Lois and everyone on this forum would have done the same.
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 27, 2023 0:26:39 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's right to hit a woman. What I'm saying is that anyone would understand Clark punching Lois if she friend-zoned Clark's booty the moment he came of the of the molecular chamber.
Lois: I don't know what to say.
Clark: Just say you love me.
Lois: Well actually I think we should just be friends. You see I never really loved you I was only in love with Superman.
Clark: POW! I'LL KNOCK YOUR LIGHTS OUT!
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 26, 2023 21:16:11 GMT -5
Clark didn’t seem like a “physical beast” in those diner scenes because they were shot early in production when Reeve was starting to bulk up. It was always so jarring in the Fortress scenes to see him go from bulk to slim. Always figured his 225 pounds of mass severely toned down his mass. Also, Reeve’s Superman never had any real physical alternations until he has to deal with the Kryptonian villains. He totally ignored the “you can be hurt like an ordinary man” statement and wasn’t ready to experience pain. The diner scene was shot well into the production…. November of 1977. It was the last scene Reeve did for Superman 2 with Donner before they suspended production and he was well buff by then.
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crown
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One F word
Jun 26, 2023 20:11:28 GMT -5
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Post by crown on Jun 26, 2023 20:11:28 GMT -5
If you were FORCED to put an F bomb into each Superman movie. Where would you put it? For me if would make perfect sense for Superman to say fuuck while looking at Lower Manhattan. He’s been on the superhero job for some time at that point and he’s admiring the city he’s saved many times. He’s reflecting and enjoying the fruits of his labor and rightly says this city is fuucking beautiful.
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Post by crown on Jun 26, 2023 14:49:18 GMT -5
It also seems that the filming of the CGI villains going around the world (to rule it) and destroying key monuments was pushed back as well. Probably also because the CGI villains were not as big names and it was important to concentrate on Brando and Hackman. It is, at least, impressive that the script was prescient enough to know that CGI was going to be invented I’m not surprised that the script knew about CGI. They were already planning to have a CGI Superman in III
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Post by crown on Jun 26, 2023 14:43:43 GMT -5
Imagine how much more in trouble they would have been without Superman stories to headline their papers. It felt pretty exploitative at the end with their “WE’RE BACK” headline with a random picture of Superman complimenting it. I also wonder why Jimmy felt that he could just GIVE a batch of newspapers to Warfield free of charge. Jimmy was just a lowly photographer and lacked the authority to give newspapers away for free. Besides as a minority shareholder I’m sure Warfield was entitled to take copies of the paper as he pleased without needing permission from Jimmy. Bigger question is did Mr White ever pay off his loan to the bank? In about 10 years when the Internet came along, was taking out a credit line for a majority stakehold in a newspaper be a wise investment? Mr White likely defaulted in the loan and was rendered destitute giving blow jobs for pocket change in the front of the daily planet.
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Post by crown on Jun 26, 2023 3:22:55 GMT -5
The Reeve Superman movies were rated PG. In the United States that means you’re allowed one F word in the movie. Where would you put the F word? I would have had it in Superman 4. When he’s looking at Manhattan “The citys beautiful. The whole world is fuucking beautiful.”
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Post by crown on Jun 26, 2023 3:19:45 GMT -5
The daily planet hadn’t made any money in 3 years. If he didn’t sex up the paper there would BE no paper soon. It’s true the common man is an idiot and only reads the headlines so the headlines need to be sensational to get the point across to the common mans tiny brain. Thoughts?
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Post by crown on Jun 26, 2023 3:11:18 GMT -5
Exactly. Rocky told Clark that his seat was the toilet in the restroom. Clark and Lois could have eaten their meal in there. lol! But very true. Let's be honest, judging by the quality of the food in that diner("another plate of that garbage") ,assuming Lois and Clark had eaten their meal as originally intended, they would have probably ended up in that toilet anyways. Rocky was trying to make it easier for them. True gentleman that he was. Yeah Clark and Lois could have had their meal served to them in the bathroom. They could have kneeled in the stall and eaten their food off the toilet seat. Ron really cared about his joint and I’m sure the toilets were kept immaculately clean. The only problem could be if Rocky himself tried to use the bathroom then the tables would be turned. Clark would say “Look Rocky we gave up our seat at the counter but this here is OUR seat. If you need to take a dump take it outside!”
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Post by crown on Jun 26, 2023 3:00:22 GMT -5
I think Reeve Superman was always relatively weak except in SIV. In S1-3, Supes probably only had the strength of 20 men tops. in SIII he had trouble lifting a few tires, but in SII he had trouble stopping a bus and only caught an antenna. And in STM he had to grit his teeth to push over a few boulders. Then all of a sudden in SIV Superman can lift the statue of liberty and move the moon. The power scale was always a bit odd in the Superman films.... but it had to be a challenge. Too little and it's not really Superman. Too much and where's the tension? (One reason I hated the turning back the time power in STM, even though emotionally it worked great though I hope it never gets brought back.) I thought Superman’s power level was odd in Superman 4. Look at how Superman is holding up the Statue of Liberty he’s holding it by the very tip and like he’s not even trying. He doesn’t even look like he’s holding it up, he looks like he’s just touching it. He’s holding it up with such ease that he should have whacked Nuclear man with the statue like a baseball bat when he tried to claw him.
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Post by crown on Jun 26, 2023 2:56:29 GMT -5
You gotta remember bud...... The diner scene as filmed by Donner was originally intended to be appended to that raunchy sex scene at the fortress that Mank wrote (pretty much in the same clumsy manner that he instilled in the James Bond flicks):
So Lois was knackered after all that carnal activity...hence the cheeseburger and coke! Margot Kidder mentioned this scene in either the Newsweek or Time magazine article- I am curious how Donner would have done this--- I assume it was going to be done in a very pg-13 style- like Reeve's "Somewhere in Time". I did think (and hope) that Donner had shot more of the Lois/Supes scenes in the FOS and would have seen more at the FOS by him, but... oh well. (Still, I want to see the rest of what's in the vaults!) I’m sure Donner shot the sex scene. Remember he shot everything in the fortress of solitude and he shot Lois wearing the Superman shirt. There had to be a hardcore x-rated sex scene to make Superman giving up his powers “worth it”. In Lesters scene the wimpy little G rated cuddle was NOT worth giving up the powers.
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 23:11:58 GMT -5
Lois was trying to get Clark to sit elsewhere but his foolish pride got handed to him in the form of that beating. That sense of ignorance is present with the character, like when he saw no repercussions in stating in an interview that he couldn’t see through lead. It’s honestly a good way to make a flawless hero vulnerable. It can come off as petty how he gets revenge at the end, but Pepper Martin did a good job at making Rocky a sketchy guy right from the start and he gets what he deserves when he tries to hit Clark again just for calling him “garbage.” Rocky also wasn’t very kind making fun of Clark’s glasses. To me, the 'lighter' revenge scene would have been more welcome, had it followed (as scripted) the darker Metro battle section for relief. I'd read that originally it was a couple of guys that beat up Clark, but I wonder how one comes back from that level of darkness if done that 'real'. I'm sure that Donner had gone back and forth on how dark to make this scene. The bits of performance with Kidder and Reeve during the humiliation - plus Donner's inserts of the diner customer's reactions.... are gold. I did feel initially that the diner revenge scene, though, undermined the earlier scene... even if directed by Donner. But- if things had gone as planned, with the beats of darkness with the original Metro battle and the tragedy of the impossible romance put out there- then it would have been a nice way to bring it back to a lighter energy.... without going TOO light. I did notice as a kid that Lois looked prettier in the diner scene than she did in the rest of the movie. It’s really the only intact Donner scene between Lois and Clark. In the original script the Newman’s wrote Clark doesn’t even get beat up Lois knocks out the bully with a Coke bottle before he has a chance to even hit Clark. That’s probably how Lester would have refilmed it. I don’t know how much darker the scene could be made but that the ending of the scene as scripted Clark walks out of the diner and starts to urinate in the alley outside. A kid walks by and witnesses a broken bloodied Superman pissing in an alley and his dreams are shattered. Not sure if the scene was actually filmed though.
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 21:53:24 GMT -5
That’s the joke, extenuated by Clark’s reaction. No Clark’s reaction is that he’s nervous that he can’t pay for all that food Lois ordered. He went to the restroom to count his pocket change while sweating bullets.
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 21:49:36 GMT -5
They could have dubbed a line of Ron saying "we only have coke". Also Lois wasn't ordering a healthy meal. A cheeseburger with EVERYTHING on it and an order of fries. That side salad doesn't make it suddenly healthy. You gotta remember bud...... The diner scene as filmed by Donner was originally intended to be appended to that raunchy sex scene at the fortress that Mank wrote (pretty much in the same clumsy manner that he instilled in the James Bond flicks):
So Lois was knackered after all that carnal activity...hence the cheeseburger and coke! Yeah it would have been great to see the X-Rated sex scene between Superman and Lois when she’s riding his cock of steel and moaning while wearing his shirt. Wasn’t it rumored that Donner shot that scene? He shot the de-power scene so surely he also shot the preceding hardcore sex scene too! Maybe Warner Bros. made Thau cut out the scene. So Lois needed a Coke and a burger to recharge her batteries…. I’ll accept that.
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 21:42:25 GMT -5
Rocly did offer a solution in the first place , to Lois's assertion about the seat: "There's another, sweetheart". Lois and Clark then proceed to sit somewhere else. Sorted. Exactly. Rocky told Clark that his seat was the toilet in the restroom. Clark and Lois could have eaten their meal in there.
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 19:05:31 GMT -5
Ron pours her a can of Coke in a glass. She probably noticed there was no orange juice on the menu and went with the side salad as her health option. They could have dubbed a line of Ron saying "we only have coke". Also Lois wasn't ordering a healthy meal. A cheeseburger with EVERYTHING on it and an order of fries. That side salad doesn't make it suddenly healthy.
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 19:01:27 GMT -5
I’d get my booty outta the seat and respect the fact that the guy wants to sit next the woman he came in with. Didn’t see Rocky offering anything for compensation for the damage he caused. Lois and Clark could have sat somewhere else. Also why should Rocky respect that they came in together? Clark and Lois weren't married so Lois was fair game for Rocky's advances. What if Lois realized that she wanted Rocky to be her man instead of Clark? Clark was being possessive and trying to own Lois which is why he got violent with Rocky.
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 15:10:26 GMT -5
Rocky was pretty low in punching Clark in the back of the head. The “Mr. Wonderful” comment established that Rocky’s known for this kind of behavior so he gets what he had coming to him when Clark comes back fully powered. At least Clark’s handling of the situation wasn’t as disturbing as in Man of Steel where he unnecessarily turned the bullying trucker’s truck into satanic art with his load of lumber. Caused more damage than a mess and a broken pinball machine. If a 6'4 225 pound man asked you to "step outside" what would you do? Knowing I'd have no chance mano-a-mano I would just hit him from behind to hopefully neutralize the threat and get on with my meal.
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 15:08:41 GMT -5
Lois orders a coke with her burger at the diner, why didn’t she order freshly squeezed orange juice? I don’t get it. Because it’s a Donner scene. That’s one of the reasons the Donner cut doesn’t work for me. Thau kept all of those references to orange juice but there was no set up for it. Why didn't Lester dub over coke line with Lois asking for orange juice? Just like Clark's line was dubbed over from "he knew" to "they knew"
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Post by crown on Jun 24, 2023 12:02:41 GMT -5
Lois orders a coke with her burger at the diner, why didn’t she order freshly squeezed orange juice? I don’t get it.
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Post by crown on Jun 23, 2023 2:48:53 GMT -5
He paid Lois a compliment by calling her a sweetheart. Then he offered to buy her something to eat. Clark had no right to that seat because he never even sat there before going to the bathroom. Clark made things get physical by asking to step outside. Rocky was justified in hitting him from behind because Clark was bigger than him and he feared for his safety. Also when Clark got his revenge he savagely beat up at truly defenseless Rocky by breaking his hand soiling his pants and viciously throwing him into a pinball machine which likely broke his back. And Clark thought it was okay to trash the place just because he gave Ron some money? Those might have been $1 bills and also the money doesn’t cover the time and effort in actually fixing the place. Thoughts?
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 23, 2023 2:44:23 GMT -5
If Lois told Clark she just wanted to be platonic friends AFTER he had just given up his powers for her would Clark have been justified in punching Lois? Clark would have said “Girl or no girl you’re gonna spit teeth!” How would you react?
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Post by crown on Jun 20, 2023 2:27:08 GMT -5
crownMan...I'd have field day in East Huston! I could arm wrestle Boog for breakfast, check out the barn for lunch, and go horse riding along that short windy road that poor ol' Jody got wacked on , after dinner. ATP asked if there are any national monuments worth destroying in East Huston........but East Huston is a National Monument to the American Dream, baby! You could also set your buns down on the guy from the orchestra and let him know if it tickles. Then you could spit teeth with Boog. Then you could eat beans with Deputy Dwayne and get a rash. Then you could go to the Barn with Jody and “get it up and keep it up.” Eventually East Houston would begin to bore you. Also weren’t the villains actually supposed to land in Houston Texas in Donners version? Why did Lester change it to East Houston Odaho? What were the odds that the villains would coincidentally land in another place called Houston?
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