|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Jul 5, 2011 19:13:12 GMT -5
For a woman he spoke to twice?
|
|
|
|
Post by Matt in the Hat on Jul 5, 2011 19:18:56 GMT -5
Two times to Superman? Or metropolis Clark?
Your query confuses me.
|
|
|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Jul 5, 2011 19:34:06 GMT -5
Superman.
Clark knew her for what? A Week?
Sorry I don't like it.
That ending was meant for SII, AFTER he had a meaningful relationship with her. AFTER he had sex with her. AFTER he gave up his Powers for her.
Not after having a passing work relationship & one flight with her.
It just doesn't sell for me as a story point.
But, Reeve's performance as he turns the world back, makes it forgivable for me.
|
|
Rod
New Member
Believe it or not
Posts: 498 
|
Post by Rod on Jul 5, 2011 22:50:26 GMT -5
i feel that superman and lois know each other for ages in STM. the only plothole imo is that there is no way that superman wouldnt interfere with human history. he is superman! he has been interfering in a daily basis of super rescues and feats. perhaps jor-el was talking especifically about time travel.  anyway, i totally get the point of the final scene, which is what kevin said: disobedience for love. that rules! part of being an adult is to make your own choices. sometimes even to disobey the authority. |
|
|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Jul 5, 2011 22:54:09 GMT -5
I would agree, were the relationship advanced enough.
It wasn't for my taste. But I still enjoy it.
Also, I think the bit gets away with alot because, in the collective consciousness, Supes & Lois have always been together. So, it works.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 5, 2011 23:02:02 GMT -5
Agreed....
But the eternal question is:
How would Donner/Mank have resolved all the loose ends in SII without a second return to time reversal?
Reeve said himself that he suggested a kiss--- versus the script by the Newmans', which had Supes using his heat vision on the glass of water.
I'm not necessarily THAT opposed to the idea of a kiss- but the way it's shot so cheaply by Lester (and staged somewhat awkwardly, the tone as if it came from another movie), it always bugged me.
But- anyhow- story construction-wise, you're 1000% right.
It would have made far more sense if it went as initially planned....
|
|
|
|
Post by Jimbo on Jul 5, 2011 23:06:59 GMT -5
Well heck, if you actually plot out the timeline going from STM, S2, and the "vague" sequel SR, there's really not much time there either.
From the point Superman comes into action, the end of STM is a few days later. S2 was meant to take place JUST afterwards. In the DC, it's clearly the next day, because of the newspaper article and the villains reaching the Moon. In the Lester cut, the time between STM and S2 is unknown.
Then with SR, we're led to believe Superman knocked up Lois in the FOS during S2. Was that ever confirmed? Regardless, he takes off for Krypton a few days later, and Lois hooks up with Richard, and it's assumed by all that he is the father. If there was any length of time in between, Richard would start dating a clearly pregnant Lois and everyone would be wondering who the father was.
So even when dealing with the love angle in SR, the Superman/Lois relationship is still just a few days, plus 5 years of absenteeism.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 5, 2011 23:16:29 GMT -5
Well.... maybe it's all that time that Supes/Clark spent alone with his dad in the FOS without any female companionship- (18-25?).... (all that knowledge of the universe apparently didn't include condoms)  |
|
|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Jul 5, 2011 23:27:54 GMT -5
Its not stated that Jason was conceived in the FOS.
Also, regardless if its a few days or not, their relationship took MAJOR steps between the end of STM & the end of SII.
|
|
Legsy
New Member
Alright, alright, alright...
Posts: 15,339
|
Post by Legsy on Jul 6, 2011 1:05:15 GMT -5
Superman. Clark knew her for what? A Week? Sorry I don't like it. That ending was meant for SII, AFTER he had a meaningful relationship with her. AFTER he had sex with her. AFTER he gave up his Powers for her. Not after having a passing work relationship & one flight with her. It just doesn't sell for me as a story point. But, Reeve's performance as he turns the world back, makes it forgivable for me. EXAAAAAAACTLY! |
|
ye5man
New Member
1%
Posts: 7,928
|
Post by ye5man on Jul 6, 2011 4:16:26 GMT -5
Maybe he was in love with her anyway? It happens. To me turning back was a spontaneous, spur of the decision, "fuck everything" decision
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 6, 2011 8:53:19 GMT -5
Yes, but....
It does (especially what would have come after in SII, if Donner stayed) make Supes look a bit selfish- assuming that there is some unknown risk to the universe by doing the time reversal.
On the surface, it's: "ok, not ONLY does he not mind possibly destroying all space & time in the first film for her...."-
But- he doesn't mind giving up his powers in the second one for her-
And in the third one, he doesn't mind leaving earth for years.
While it works anyways that Supes is, after all, human- there's no real trace of the weight of Lois' importance to him in the short amount of time that Mav mentioned for Supes to fall for Lois- but in the second script, originally Donner/Mank had a couple of lines of dialogue that Supes WAS in love with her for the longest time as Clark.
Did a week pass in STM's time from the time that he started at the Daily Planet to turning the world back? Or did months pass?
Would be interesting to check & confirm clues in the movies that have any 'leeway' versus flatout cues that this/that happened in time in the films....
|
|
ye5man
New Member
1%
Posts: 7,928
|
Post by ye5man on Jul 6, 2011 9:20:31 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Jul 6, 2011 9:44:48 GMT -5
LOVE it. 
|
|
|
|
Post by ChrisM on Jul 6, 2011 9:59:29 GMT -5
I wonder about that too, but the emotional pay off of him disobeying his father, foreshadowing S2, is too good to miss Obviously not killing her is an option, but without it, the whole earthquake sequence becomes anticlimactic and predictable once he seals the fault. They needed something else for dramatic interest. Thinking out loud - what if they killed Jimmy instead? They could always get a replacement photographer for $40 a week. |
|
ye5man
New Member
1%
Posts: 7,928
|
Post by ye5man on Jul 6, 2011 10:53:49 GMT -5
Which is exactly what happened in SR.
|
|
|
|
Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 6, 2011 11:08:25 GMT -5
This is a damn good discussion on STM that I've seen in a long time. It's amazing how there's still more to talk about.
I share ye5man's views in turning back the world, but it is obvious that there is no real core behind Superman's love for Lois. But that's what made the flying sequence with Supes and Lois magical. But since it is in the collective conscious that Superman and Lois go together, we can buy it immediately. And that goes for any story with known love interests. But it is lazy writing to let the audience assume.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 6, 2011 18:43:39 GMT -5
Right.... but having the phantom zone explode at the end would have been an interesting choice- as was originally planned..... but it would have made the film feel like it was only the first part of a film- and not a whole experience. If Donner left it as a cliffhanger--- then we might have gained something, but we would have TOTALLY lost that fantastic sequence of Supes in the clouds, listening to his fathers, and his younger self, before turning back the world. Why? Because if Lester still would have taken over- no Brando- thus, no real weight to that montage of Supes' listening to the voices over the years although the story would have moved past the Paris opening bit. If Donner left it as a cliffhanger AND came back--- there'd still be the Brando missing thing to contend with. Also, the balcony & the Hackman stuff was ALREADY SHOT- so, with the legal snafus that came up (the actors I believe filed papers saying that they were contracted only if they were all shot at the same time, not a few years later & were able to renegotiate for more $$$) the Salkinds would have had to pay a mint to get Hackman to return. Thus...... even if Donner came back + no Lois dying in STM..... he probably wouldn't re-instate her death for SII, either. Supes would have to be upset over the world getting trashed but without being told that it was forbidden to change human history.... |
|
|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Jul 6, 2011 19:01:28 GMT -5
It is obvious that there is no real core behind Superman's love for Lois. But since it is in the collective conscious that Superman and Lois go together, we can buy it immediately. But it is lazy writing to let the audience assume. Exactly what I was saying. |
|
|
|
Post by stargazer01 on Jul 6, 2011 20:10:24 GMT -5
Basically everything MAV said. In both the novelization and in the movie (when Clark is talking to Lois outside the DP building) we see how Superman/Clark felt about not saying goodbye to Lois. He really wanted to tell her but he felt he couldn't do it in fear that she could stop him from going. He was really torn but ultimately decided to go. Right. Though Singer Did say that they had had sex some other time after the events of SII. The love was just too strong.. ;D Thus...... even if Donner came back + no Lois dying in STM..... he probably wouldn't re-instate her death for SII, either. Supes would have to be upset over the world getting trashed but without being told that it was forbidden to change human history.... Loved that scene and Reeve's performance, but I still think that Superman shouldn't be so powerful to be able to turn back time. It's just too much, imo. Same thing about the amnesia kiss, it's more like a fairytale than sci fi. |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 6, 2011 20:11:14 GMT -5
Speaking of collective conscious regarding their relationship- it's also what I think bugged a lot of people regarding the existence of the son & the Richard White situation..... had this existed in the 'early' comics, it might have been easier for fans to go with.
Since it didn't- well, I was fine with it- but I think the 'collective conscious' is what both helps and handcuffs movies involving the characters.
It helps in that it's a fast shortcut to getting them together....but....
if Lois is/will always be Supes' true and only love, then the exercise of having Supes date other ladies doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference to the character as he stands. (Thus, why the retcon of Supes and Lois being married doesn't seem like a likesaver for the series per se in the comics).
Will be interesting to see how this plays out in Snyder's version......
|
|
|
|
Post by ChrisM on Jul 7, 2011 8:01:00 GMT -5
Hey if Lois was just a little bit hotter and a few years younger, I could see myself doing something crazy to bring her back -- even if I've only known her for a few days.
Guys, women make us do crazy $hit.
|
|
Knight
New Member
@Knighty80
Posts: 1,069
|
Post by Knight on Jul 7, 2011 8:38:10 GMT -5
I see both sides here,he disobeys his Father, what man hasn't at some point? He loved her and will do anything to save her. It's a pay off innit? from ''All those powers...'' when Pa Kent dies. Reeve's agonized scream is excellent. But,when you look at two,what Mav said...he gave up a heck of a lot for her and they went through a lot,then to turn it back so she forgets who he is,I dont know about that...now if she had died in II and not in STTM THEN he turns the world back.  He turns the world back,she is saved and of course forgets who Superman really is. Two for the price of one... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2011 12:00:38 GMT -5
This is all basically a pissing contest between which Superman movie has the least stupid bullshit, right?
None of you can win, by the way.
|
|
|
|
Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 7, 2011 12:10:20 GMT -5
This is all basically a pissing contest between which Superman movie has the least stupid bullshit, right? None of you can win, by the way. ;D ;D ;D ;D It's like trying to checkmate a king with a king. |
|
