Wire removal in Superman movies

[matt]

Since the Superman movies are on DVD, and STM on blu ray, and HDTV, the wires in the flying scenes are a lot more visible then ever before.
Would Lester and Donner approve of wire removal in their movies?
I wonder if WB would consider it for any new future release? I would like it if they did wire removal in the movies.

[EvilSupes]

All the movies, 1-4, need further remastering. 2-4 more than STM, because STM has already had a lot of work done, but it still has some wires in some scenes, as well as the curtains during the Krypton explosion.

If they bring out Lester's cut of S2 on Blu-ray, that will need major remastering. The colours of the print appear to have faded, hence why it looks so dark and muted over the Donner Cut, and it will probably need some cleaning up in places - like the metropolis battle for example.

S3 has the most wires showing out of all four movies, from what I can remember. In nearly every scene, where Superman is landing/taking off, the wires can be seen. As for the effects and the print, it seems pretty good still.

S4, is a bit better at hiding the wires than S3 in places, but there are still a few stand out scenes - mostly at the end. For example the scene where Nuclear Man and Superman are using telekinesis powers in the street and a group of people are lifted into the air and brought back down. Another is when Nuclear Man flys through each floor after Superman to get Lacey. The effects I would say need completely redoing in most parts. Whether that means simply making new backgrounds/CGI supes/nuclearman for flying and fighting scenes, so be it. This is the one movie where I actually think digital technology would work wonders.

CAM attempted some dirt removal with some of the deleted scenes of the S4 DVD, so it's definitely possible to clean those up too, but did also mention that it takes a heck of a long time to do. WB could easily do it though, with the technology they have.

[Jimbo]

I don't understand...

"Should they keep or remove wires in Superman movies?" is not a yes/no question.

Yes = remove?
No = keep?

[matt]

Sept 19, 2010 16:50:00 GMT -5 Jimbo said:

I don't understand...

"Should they keep or remove wires in Superman movies?" is not a yes/no question.

Yes = remove?
No = keep?

I meant "yes" is you are for the removal of all visible wires in the movies, and "No" leave the movies alone and keep them as they are now.

[Jimbo]

Absolutely they need to go. They take me right out of the action. The curtain previously removed when Krypton explodes needs to be removed again too.

[Matt in the Hat]

Movies need to remain untouched from their theatrical releases, and the effects of before need to remain untouched. Its a statement of the work put into it at the time.

It wasn't meant to be seen on blu ray or anything in the first place. It's a film, and was created to be seen on film. I'm fed up with George Lucas mentality infecting our brains. It has to stop. Once a movie's done, it's done.

It may seem like a small thing, erasing wires, but it's not needed. Movies can be appreciated for what they were at the time and should not be tampered with.

[TylerDurden389]

Ya know, at first I was gonna say, yes, remove the wires. However, Matt makes a good point. If anything, let's save the wire removals for any fan cuts out there. It's only a small, easy correctable effect.

This made me think about how much I hated the dvd for "The Terminator". I hated that they fixed the sound effects, music, and some of the color. I ended up RE-BUYING it on vhs.

[Scissorpuppy]

The mono track was kept on the Terminator dvd, the only reason new effects were used on the 5.1 was that they wanted to create a 5.1 track but all the original effects were now gone. Similer thing happened to Jaws.

[crazy_asian_man]

Movies need to remain untouched from their theatrical releases, and the effects of before need to remain untouched. Its a statement of the work put into it at the time.

It wasn't meant to be seen on blu ray or anything in the first place. It's a film, and was created to be seen on film. I'm fed up with George Lucas mentality infecting our brains. It has to stop. Once a movie's done, it's done.

It may seem like a small thing, erasing wires, but it's not needed. Movies can be appreciated for what they were at the time and should not be tampered with.

I agree... Unless the director was fired halfway through and replaced by a director who had no respect for the original director's vision. Then it needs MAJOR changing/fixing.

[EvilSupes]

I'm all for preserving movies, and there's no better example than the misery of the Special Edition changes done to the original SW movies, where Lucas has been very reluctant in giving the fans the original versions in decent PQ. However I think for example the Lester cut, where the print has faded, it would not look good as it is, on blu-ray.

Personally, I like to see a blade runner release for 1-4 on blu-ray. With STM and it's various forms/cuts included, Lester, RDC, RIC and Selutron cut for SII, remastered SIII and IV with original theatricla versions. There's so much stuff that could be done in the next release. All of it is easily possible for WB to do and would definitely put all this controversy over the various versions to rest - they just need to pull their fingers out of their ass and give the superman movies the proper treatment they deserve!

[atp]

Sept 19, 2010 15:51:01 GMT -5 EvilSupes said:

S4, is a bit better at hiding the wires than S3 in places,

That's because the flying scenes were done with cardboard cutouts, not actors.

[Matt in the Hat]

Sept 19, 2010 23:41:44 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Movies need to remain untouched from their theatrical releases, and the effects of before need to remain untouched. Its a statement of the work put into it at the time.

It wasn't meant to be seen on blu ray or anything in the first place. It's a film, and was created to be seen on film. I'm fed up with George Lucas mentality infecting our brains. It has to stop. Once a movie's done, it's done.

It may seem like a small thing, erasing wires, but it's not needed. Movies can be appreciated for what they were at the time and should not be tampered with.

I agree... Unless the director was fired halfway through and replaced by a director who had no respect for the original director's vision. Then it needs MAJOR changing/fixing.

;D ;D

[crazy_asian_man]

That's because the flying scenes were done with cardboard cutouts, not actors.

I believe the original tag line for SIV was originally, "You will believe a piece of cardboard can fly." (Again. And again. And again.)

[matt]

I wish they could add heat vision in SIII when he is supposed to heat the acid up that destroys the computer. I wonder why they never put that in the movie in the first place?

[TylerDurden389]

Sept 21, 2010 15:10:23 GMT -5 matt said:

I wish they could add heat vision in SIII when he is supposed to heat the acid up that destroys the computer. I wonder why they never put that in the movie in the first place?

Where was the heat vision when he melted the mirror in the bar? Where was the heat vision when he was in the forest during that story Pryor was telling? Obviously they forgot to add the effects in there as well.

[Valentine Smith]

I don't consider wire removal to be "cheating", "Lucasing", or being untrue to the vision of the filmmaker. I think that they never expected to see these movies with the kind of clarity you can now, and it should just be treated as any other piece of cleanup in the remastering process. I don't need new effects.

[Scissorpuppy]

I agree, especially since ( Well at least in the first film ) they tried their best to make sure the wires were not seen. Making 4 or 8 K scans bring out things that were not meant to be seen, cleaning up a film can be different than changing a film.

Don't get me started on the horrible Eiffel tower shot, they really could have done better than that. I'm sure you all know which shot I'm talking about.

[Melv]

Plus the wires were never there on the SIII VHS or film. Something happened during the DVD transfer where they all became visible again.

[EvilSupes]

Sept 22, 2010 5:39:57 GMT -5 Melv said:

Plus the wires were never there on the SIII VHS or film. Something happened during the DVD transfer where they all became visible again.

Yep.

I have read it was something to do with the contrast being too low and not boosted enough to obscure the wires using boosted contrast highlights. It's quite a neat trick actually, as it does seem to work if you try and do it manually on your TV, but still far from perfect as it makes the rest of the movie look crappy.

[ChrisM]

Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I thought the only scene in STM where a wire is visible is when they take off from Lois' terrace... and even then it was really only spotted if you knew exactly where to look for it.

The rest of the footage had the wires painted out frame by frame - was this not the case? If so then the resolution shouldn't make a difference for those flying scenes. Blue screen and front projection were not wire issues either so I don't know what some people are seeing in the blu ray (I dont have a copy so I can't say).

PS - the curtains in space were noticeable on the DVD transfer anyway.

[ye5man]

I've seen wires during the helicopter rescue

S4, is a bit better at hiding the wires than S3 in places

Good Lord, that statement is so wrong

WB fucked up the print on the DVD; the sky is supposed to bleached out to wide the wires. VHS/TV versions omitted the wires completely. Major fail by WB


and as for IV, you can either see the wires or where they painted them out in almost every flying shot. To add insult to injury, Reeve's waist buckle is clearly on show.

[EvilSupes]

I am comparing the DVDs. I've even stated that the SIII wires looked bad because of the contrast issues on the DVD - so I acknowledge it's not the movie itself.

What I was saying was SIV had them hidden slightly better shot for shot on the DVD - whether they are done well or not is another issue. In the SIII dvd they are not even hidden.

I am in no way saying SIV has better effects than SIII.

Since I am referring to the wires on the DVDs, my statement stands.

[crazy_asian_man]

I love the original question- morally, would wire removal be considered changing the original work?

At what point does 'restoring' become 'changing'?

In George Lucas' case w/his Star Wars films, it's too much, and it's a different set of films altogether. Is it closer to what he originally wanted? Presumably--- but it's not the film(s) that people fell in love with initially.

In the Donner Cut- it's a moot point. We've all discussed/argued over it, the resources either aren't there to do the same as what Lucas was able to do. It's 'the Donner not-even workprint but deleted scenes cobbled together' cut by an insane editor' cut.

* Does enhancing the color become changing the piece of work?
* Does enchancing the sound become changing the piece of work?
* Does removing the boom mikes or armpit stains become changing the piece of work?

Or.... does it make for a more immersive experience into the story?

In any case-
My own feeling is that Spielberg chose the best path on his restorations:

He let the 'original' versions of his films also get upgraded and be made available, without significantly changing them.

So long as there's that, don't see any problems....
On the flip side, who loves seeing wires?

[Jack Tripper]

im all for wire removal. when the big superman box set came out, they were very noticeable in superman 3. never noticed them before that. it definitely takes you out of the moment. now with HD, you can see everything, so i say take 'em out!

[Olly H 82]

To be honest with Superman IV you can see most of the wires shots during the blue screen moments. A lot of the take offs and landings are very good in Superman IV.