cypher85
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Post by cypher85 on Oct 25, 2010 13:28:57 GMT -5
(This was going to go in the comics section. But, it diverged into a discussion on superman in general and I thought that others who might want to contribute wouldn't might not see it. So I put it in the general forum.) Anybody excited for this, or at least planning on reading it. I think it looks pretty sweet. I like the art. Not too familiar with Shane Davis, but this art looks good. Really modern, which I think is a good thing for superman. Though I have been fairly lukewarm about JMS's current arc in Superman. www.slashfilm.com/2010/10/25/superman-earth-on/One thing I am on the fence about that supposedly the characterization of superman has him acting more angsty and brooding. Not sure if this is true until I read it, but early reviews have criticized the comic for this. Now on one hand Superman is by nature a symbol of hope and broodiness is much more batman. But, on the other hand I think a completely different take on superman could be a good thing. While i enjoyed Secret Origin, it felt a little heavy handed in it's depiction of Superman being the ultimate beacon of hope and will usher in a new age to the down trodden metropolis. But, some internal conflict with the character could breathe some new life into a character that has time and time again shown to be very difficult to write for and have audiences connect with. I think it is for this reason that Batman connects so well with audiences. He has some inner turmoil that he has to deal with. And also why I think his rogues gallery is the best of the bunch. Now superman is my main guy and always will be. But, his rogues gallery is really really lacking in characters that are interesting and aren't just one not. Their is Lex. And Geoff Johns current Brainiac run from 2 years ago helped. But, complex and relatable characters are the ones that can be built upon and gives writers some really good meat and material to work with. As much as I love doomsday, and make it a point to read every issue that he appears in, he doesn't hold a candle to the riddler, two-face, poison ivy, killer croc. Even though it was cool when they introduced the proper Zod, it still felt like retreading familiar territory and attempting to copy the movies. Geoff Johns actually tried to get the supes supporting cast more involved, but with new krytpon, those characters are rarely ever seen. Cat Grant has been regulated to a supergirl character. After having superman gone for a year with WONK, then to have the JMS grounded storyline have him out of metropolis for another year I think Perry White has had about 2 lines of dialogue in two years (exaggeration, I know) This is why I love the Jurgens, Stern early to mid nineties era. The supporting cast actually played a major role in the comics. It is because of all of this I am optimistic that a little angst could be a good thing for superman comics. That might change in two days though when I read earth one. So what are your thoughts on Earth One. And/or my comments on the state of superman comics, supes characterization? This discussion could extend past comics and into other media. I have read so many stories, that retreading similiar material can be boring after while. That's why I really don't want the new movie to be an origin story. Move beyond that. I think it would be interesting to have a movie with Clark traveling the globe, deciding what he would like to do. Or go a completely different route. This is why I love elseworld stories so much. Thoughts on Earth One, the characterization of Supes. Interested to hear what others think. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 25, 2010 14:05:57 GMT -5
Superman seems for so long to almost be a victim of its own success, in terms of comics. It's not enough to just focus all the energy on making one great comic--- he has to have several titles all the time, by different writers with differing points of view as to who he is. That's fine and all.....but it makes it difficult to care too much about anything done, when everything has to (for the most part) go through committee to get approved. The time that DC decided to just have one guy (mostly) in charge- and start from scratch- with John Byrne, I loved it, as there were only a few titles (with John mostly in charge)- and things that happened in that world counted, for the most part. When Byrne left/that plan fell apart, Jurgens did a great job stepping in- but if memory serves right, the plan of JUST one guy mostly in charge creatively of Superman went away. (( *I'm probably oversimplyifying things around that time, but that's how it seemed to me- as I do know that the first "Crisis on Infinite Earths" was supposed to be something that wasn't a yearly thing, but at the time a giant shakeup/reboot of most all the major franchises at DC. )) Currently--- the best plan now seems to be just to glom onto your favorite writer's reign on Superman, for however long their stint is. The "New Krypton" thing was simply disastrous imo--- nice idea in theory, but in execution, a giant bore. Would have been far more interesting to just have it be a miniseries under Johns and Frank. As far as JMS goes- I mentioned on another thread: I admire at least his trying to get a point or message made in his stories- sometimes his stories can be a bit clunky or the behavior at times can be a little head-scratching, but can't ever say that he slept through the assignment. His "Brave and Bold" Solo stories so far have been more successful than his "Superman walks the Earth" stories so far- (In fact, I'm a little disappointed so far- I didn't mind the concept, but in execution, it's a bit underwhelming--- maybe that'll change later). Anyhow, those are thoughts so far. If I had my way, I'd say: have ONE WRITER/ ONE ARTIST work on ONE Superman comic- with no ridiculous amount of crossover mess for FIVE years- No multiple series. Tell the beginning, middle and 'end' to how the myth would be told...... They can tell a million stories or fifty. They SHOULD try to exhaust it with their pov undiluted. It looked like WB/DC were going to give that opportunity to Singer for the movies- but imo it was just sad that things didn't turn out that Singer didn't have a chance to put everything he could into a series of sequels unblocked. But as far as comics go, we all know it'll be a franchise that DC feels needs looking over-the=shoulder with. Yeah, there is the 'All-Star' stuff and the 'Elseworlds' stuff.... but would be nice if DC felt committed enough to say 'THIS one origin and version will be canon for the next 25 years'. But it can't happen. Superman is too big to be just in one series and too big to just stay in one creator's hands for a number of years unfettered. So, the compromise is seeing writers taking different stabs at it for a year or so at a time, with most of the stories not really making a difference in the history of the character or his universe one way or the other. *sigh* No wonder it's not necessarily a best seller. But then again, Spider-man has the same problem.  |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Oct 25, 2010 22:40:19 GMT -5
No interest in this whatsoever.
I hate JMS. Hate him. Can't read him. He's the Zack Snyder of comics.
I'm sick of Superman origins. Johns' and Frank's recent Secret Origin was lovely, but still flawed. I'm quite happy with it being the Superman origin for the next 20 years. But honestly? As a miniseries? Man of Steel was better.
Even though I disagree with many of Byrne's decisions in the course of his Superman revamp, Man Of Steel has better pacing, and gives a more comprehensive look at the character, whereas Secret Origin was a bit "kitchen sink".
But Earth One? I just don't care. I'll read it eventually, but I'm in no rush.
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Oct 26, 2010 7:27:19 GMT -5
When did Bryne leave?
My fave era of the comics is 86-96. Once he got married (itself a boring story as he had no powers) and then turned into "Electric man" for the new millenium I lost all interest. I'm curious if Bryne left during or after this period. "Superman: Exile" is my all time fave title.
Another origins story? I have a passive interest in comics only, certainly not in another film.
I dislike crossover stories, too exhausting to keep up.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Oct 26, 2010 12:14:59 GMT -5
love byrne, love jurgens-but after the resurrection, the serial format and "event"-driven stories got old fast.
it was crap after jurgens left, spiked a bit with jeph loeb and havent given a crap since.
loved "exile" .... it was amazing.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Oct 26, 2010 13:14:40 GMT -5
I have one longbox which contains every single issue of Superman, Action, Adventures, and MOS from 1986 up through the Death and Return. I got rid of everything after that (started up again with the recent Geoff Johns, James Robinson, etc stuff).
But that box...is perfect. It contains everything I need about that incarnation of the character. It never reached those heights again. Very good writing, and almost universally great art throughout.
I'm working on my "bronze age" longbox, which starts with the Denny O'Neil/Curt Swan run, and will eventually contain every single Elliot Maggin or Cary Bates story from Superman and Action from 1972-1986. (this, incidentally, is my truly favorite incarnation of Superman, and always will be)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 26, 2010 13:30:16 GMT -5
Judging by that, I bow my head to you as a comic fan, sir. You're a much bigger reader of Superman than myself, would love to read your reviews on what you think are the best of the best.
Curious why you hate JMS so much- even the Brave and Bold short stories? O well, we have different tastes.
About Byrne:
The story I'd read (not sure if how much was rumor or not) was that Byrne is REALLY thin-skinned (verified by a number of other comic creators' stories) and the rumormill was that he took offense to what was said in Time magazine about his run--- plus I think there was some other matters... but definitely glad that they returned the Fortress of Solitude after he left. His idea of not including it bugged me.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Oct 26, 2010 13:40:37 GMT -5
I just think JMS tries too hard. It shows through in his dialogue. He overwrites everything. His characters try really hard to sound "casual". Lately he's been doing this Brian Michael Bendis thing with his dialogue which is failing utterly. Just the preview pages from Earth One confirm this.
I haven't read his B&B stuff, but you're not the first person to tell me that it's really good, so I may check 'em out from somebody.
I never liked Supreme Power which everyone had little joy spasms over. I found it derivative, nihilistic, and overwritten. I think "Grounded" is a profoundly dull and unoriginal concept, and the first issue was enough for me to say "enough already".
He's just one of those guys I don't get. I mean, he's not GARBAGE like Chuck Austen or somebody, I just don't get where he's coming from, and I think he's bloated and overrated. File under: Mark Millar. A guy who obviously can write, but spends too much time being cute.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Oct 26, 2010 14:41:52 GMT -5
I have one longbox which contains every single issue of Superman, Action, Adventures, and MOS from 1986 up through the Death and Return. I got rid of everything after that (started up again with the recent Geoff Johns, James Robinson, etc stuff). But that box...is perfect. It contains everything I need about that incarnation of the character. It never reached those heights again. Very good writing, and almost universally great art throughout. I'm working on my "bronze age" longbox, which starts with the Denny O'Neil/Curt Swan run, and will eventually contain every single Elliot Maggin or Cary Bates story from Superman and Action from 1972-1986. (this, incidentally, is my truly favorite incarnation of Superman, and always will be) well done !! i wish we could look over collections and trade on gaps. |
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Oct 26, 2010 17:06:54 GMT -5
Does anyone know the graphic novel I need to buy where Lex Luthor Jnr (from the 90s) is unmasked as the real Lex? I'd love to read that one.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Oct 26, 2010 23:11:18 GMT -5
Don't know the name, but will ask around.
All of those 1986-1994 Superman comics can be acquired extremely cheap at conventions, though. If you make yourself a list, you can get 'em all for 50 cents to a dollar a pop. It's how I filled in the gaps in my collection.
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Post by stargazer01 on Oct 27, 2010 19:19:44 GMT -5
Two things:
I loved the 'Exile' story.
I'll give JMS the benefit of the doubt right now (until I read more reviews) cuz the guy created the great Babylon 5 series.
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matt
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Post by matt on Oct 27, 2010 22:46:01 GMT -5
Does anyone know the graphic novel I need to buy where Lex Luthor Jnr (from the 90s) is unmasked as the real Lex? I'd love to read that one. Here is the comic Action Comics 678  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2010 12:38:49 GMT -5
Ugh. I just read this.
Awful.
I couldn't read it in one sitting. Spread it out over three days. I'd look at it with disdain when I could be reading it but didn't. Luckily, my buddy has a buddy at DC so I got it for free, but Jesus Christ, I still feel ripped off.
It's wholly uninteresting. Not fun whatsoever. The artwork can be pretty but has absolutely no sense of urgency or action AT ALL. When the big fight scenes occur, good luck trying to figure out what the fuck is going on. The character designs are horrible. Worst supporting cast, ever. Lois, Jimmy, Perry, Jon and Martha have never looked worse. And the villain, fuck, forget about it. Even Supes looks bland most of the time.
The story itself is shit. I should've listened to Val. I actually had slight hopes for this story, but now I wish I could unread it. Just a waste of my time. A slap in the face to Superman lore. It has a few decent moments, I maybe smiled twice, from the Daily Planet people, though.
However, one key moment had me almost tear it in half. I knew they were going to slightly hipsterize him, but...but...when he finally begins to dress like Clark Kent...
...he...
....he wears a grandma cardigan....
I....I just...
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Post by Valentine Smith on Nov 7, 2010 13:07:15 GMT -5
Kev, read Secret Origin and it will make you feel much, much better.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2010 13:16:47 GMT -5
Shit, I haven't even finished that yet, I don't think. Christ! I shall do so now.
Sorry I missed the show last night. Just moved. Couch didn't fit. Need a new couch. Buying one tomorrow hopefully. You will visit soon. TV will be purchased by Christmas.
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Post by stargazer01 on Nov 10, 2010 15:31:35 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2010 22:01:42 GMT -5
Fuck.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 10, 2010 23:43:43 GMT -5
Not that anyone asked, but personally, I'd prefer that DC just take the approach of giving Supes to ONE author/artist for five years, and give them freedom to take to the hilt, with a minimum of crossovers/etc.
Having these multiple variations of his origin/etc.- and multiple interpretations every single month definitely takes away from my interest level.
When Donner was going to do Superman comics, I was so hoping that they would have made it a separate continuity, rather than trying to blend it in.
With the situation of the comics as is, hard to get too invested in the character at all nowadays...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2010 0:20:45 GMT -5
I'd love love LOVE for that to happen, but it never will. Too many comics rely on Superman.
But yeah. I'd love to see a complete reboot. No need to see his past or anything. Just show him on his first day in Metropolis and take it from there. Each issue covers a few days. Literally tell everything about Superman's beginnings, not Clark's.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Nov 11, 2010 0:26:31 GMT -5
The thing is, we've had that. If you look at the early Byrne stuff, that's exactly what it is. It's Superman from the ground up. "Ultimate Superman" if you will. We probably won't get anything like that again for 10 years or more, especially since this Earth One crap is successful.
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matt
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Post by matt on Nov 11, 2010 1:18:26 GMT -5
I loved John Byrne's run on Superman. You can get decent reading copies on ebay for cheap.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2010 1:22:24 GMT -5
Ehhh...it's pretty good but a LOT of it is just plain ol' ridiculous. The monologues, spoken or thought, were like half pages long, and in the middle of a fight, even. And Superman was just kinda pompous, really.
I'm sure we won't see it redone, but it'd be cool to see it happen more on a smaller scale that gets larger and larger but never gets too far out of touch, if that makes any sense.
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cypher85
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Post by cypher85 on Nov 11, 2010 9:00:39 GMT -5
It's selling so well that they are taking JMS off the main title (awesome because grounded sucks balls, except another writer will be taking over the storyline).
"Today brought both good and bad news for fans of Straczynski's work. DC announced on its Source Blog this afternoon that, because of the huge sales success of Earth One, Straczynski will be refocusing his attention onto the Earth One franchise. This will result in at least one sequel graphic novel, again penned by Straczynski and drawn by Shane Davis.
While this is surely welcome news for fans of Earth One, we did mention there was bad news as well. Because of his increased commitment to the sequel, Straczynski will be departing both Superman and Wonder Woman in the coming months. As of Superman #707 and Wonder Woman #605, Straczynski will be replaced by other writers, who will continue the ongoing storylines based on his notes and outlines"
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 11, 2010 11:46:41 GMT -5
Byrne had some great ideas--- but some not so great, I agree. Given how popular an artist he was on X-men around that time, I'm pretty sure that DC roped him in as an artist for Superman by giving him the opportunity to more/less lead the way for the direction of Superman at the time--- (though they probably would have been just fine with having Byrne commit to drawing with their own chosen writer, but unlikely)
Thus, (imo), generally the most interesting run for awhile run of Supes in comics.
Still---- The spontaneous monologues were just painful (and laughable). Most of the times, you'd tell Byrne thought of them at the last second, because a panel would have a character's face- squished in by three word panels, with no negative space left over.
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