"NEW" DC : general discussion

[Valentine Smith]

Well, I certainly agree with that last statement! I think it's a little unfair to compare a promo image that Perez drew with failing eyesight and health problems to promo art that Jim Lee can just mail in whenever he feels like blowing a deadline.

I'll change my opinion on Jim Lee if every issue of his Justice League arc ships on time. Well, scratch that...it won't necessarily make me like his art more, but I WILL complain less! Honest! I promise! That's my biggest problem with him! The dude is the biggest celebrity in comics and has been unable to meet a deadline pretty much...ever. It's annoying.

[MAVERICK]

Jun 26, 2011 18:59:51 GMT -5 cypher85 said:

[cypher85]

mav nice criticism. What are your particular qualms about the above image?

[MAVERICK]

Jun 26, 2011 21:32:58 GMT -5 cypher85 said:

mav nice criticism. What are your particular qualms about the above image?

Glad you asked:


Change for the sake of change. FAIL

Superman in what looks to be a protective suit: FAIL

Collars for what purpose? FAIL

Wonder Woman's costume: FAIL

Cyborg looking like Megatron from Bayformers: FAIL

Superman's belt is there for?......FAIL

Another useless retcon series stunt: FAIL

[charl]

Jun 12, 2011 13:58:40 GMT -5 supes78 said:

Even the letters fall to reveal the word 'AIL'
Without him realising it, is Perez telling us that he's sick, or that he's sick with the costume design?

[MAVERICK]

Perez, bless him, managed to somewhat minimize the shittyness of Lee's craptastic design.

I hate Lee's art. Almost as much as I hate Ed McGuinness' art.

[cypher85]

I don't think they needed to remove the outside underwear, but if they were going to, it still needed to have something to break up the blue jumpsuit it would be. I think I would have preferred a yellow belt, but IMO it does need something to break up the blue.

And change for change sake, the character is 70 years old. Many people have talked about all the various changes he has gone through over the years. Some people just have to complain about something. As i've said before if they left it alone there would be people complaining. If they change it, lord knows people will complain.

I doubt anything will ever be as drastic a change as a superman in a blue containment suit with electrical powers.

[MAVERICK]

Change for a good reason is one thing.

Give me a good reason that Superman is wearing what appears to be fucking Body Armor. And a collar and that will be impossible to hide under his Clark clothes. And sleeves that cover his hands.

[cypher85]

well even though most fans had no problem with it (myself included), the underwear was incredibly dated, and a source for non comics fan to make fun of the character, which I am sure we have all heard from people at one time or anther. DC wants to make their characters relevant and to give people a reason to read the comics. Now good stories is the best way to do this. But a visual change is a good way to bring in new readers who aren't familiar with how shitty the storylines have been recently. They only hear their friends making fun a guy who wears his underwear on the outside (which he did). If you look on the list of best selling issues from 2010, superman doesn't even appear until #109, and that's because it was an anniversary issue, and a shitty one at that. The next best selling superman issue was number 212 (supes 701, so that lets you know how many people bought 700 just because it was an anniversary issue). Superman isn't relevant to the world anymore. And I think change that brings attention to supes is welcome. (case in point, Superman Earth one was the 5th best selling trade/graphic novel of the year, behind properties that had movies/tv shows driving them to boost sales). Though with that said, all the artistic change in the world isn't going to help anything unless the stories are good. I am personally excited for action with Morrison and Rags, and don't have too much faith in Superman with Perez at the moment.

[Valentine Smith]

Let's assume for a moment that the Superman suit is now, 100% supposed to be of Kryptonian origin, and is not "my Mommy made it for me". If this suit is some kind of Kryptonian artifact, be it military or scientific, then why WOULDN'T it offer some kind of protection for the wearer? Even assuming that they've toned down Superman's invulnerability a touch (ala Man Of Steel, S:TAS, etc), and Supes can no longer fly through a sun (Silver/Bronze Age Superman, All Star Superman, etc), then a functional suit that offers SOME kind of protection makes sense.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not thrilled with the weird segments and things on this design. Aesthetically, I'd prefer a gold belt to a red one to break up the costume a bit. But, if this actually serves a purpose, namely, giving Clark a REASON to wear the suit (just as surely as Green Lantern has a reason), then it isn't "change for the sake of change". I've advocated for quite some time making slight changes to the Superman costume to make it slightly more alien/regal/functional for the movies, as long as it's still recognizably Superman...which this is.

You're also assuming that this is something that's meant to be worn under Clark Kent clothing. Since it's clearly supposed to be alien in origin, maybe it's got its own kind of weird storage thing, not unlike how the Flash keeps his costume in his ring. None of this fundamentally changes what makes Superman great. Do we really need another panel of Superman tearing his shirt open to reveal an "S"? Does anybody really expect any reader to buy the idea that this guy wears an "S" on his shirt that stands for "Superman" and that his Mom made it for him? There are things I'm willing to move on from with the Superman legend IF IT MEANS THAT WE WILL GET MORE/BETTER STORIES IN THE FUTURE. With Grant Morrison in charge of the new Superman status quo, I feel pretty confident that things will ultimately be alright.

I'm alright with it. Unacceptable changes to me would be giving him a helmet, chest straps, no cape, a black costume, or changing him into a guy who will KILL. I'd be much more concerned about what changes they're making to the CHARACTER then a few lines on the suit and whether or not he has red trunks on.

[cypher85]

completely agree with you val

[Jor-L5150]

val- i love you man, and i hope you dont think i or anyone else is adversarial with you. i will be picking up the superman books, and i hope they're good.

but i want to tell you a TRUE STORY, what happened last weekend, that nails this point.

marie has a girlfriend who's husband is a HUGE superman fan. looooves superman. grew up on chris reeve movies. wathced lois and clark even though it was corny, watched smallville even though it was goofy. loves superman. favorite toy as a kid? kenner superpowers superman.

but, he was only ever casual about comics- tuned in and out. found the continuity daunting. so i see him last weekend and we're gonna see GL, and we're being nerdy and - i swear i was NOT negative- i told him all about the DC relaunch. after having seen my comics collection he has been trying to get "back in" to comics.

what follows is VERBATUM what was said:

Jor:
" ...well, you're in luck man, DC just announced a complete relaunch of all their titles- every title starts over..new issue #1's.. new stories so you'll be in on the ground floor"

Jor's pal:
" ..that sounds pretty neat... whe is that?"

- so, i show him a picture of the "new" superman.

Jor's pal:
"...that's awful.. "

Jor:
"..well...yeah... there's some contraversy about that... but hey, it's anew series... all new everything is changed"

Jor's pal:
"...?..."

Jor:
" well.... superman ... and wonder woman.. they will have completely new origins- and as you see, new costumes. it's a whole new version. they might get rid of krytpon... they might get rid of lois.. i dont know yet. we'll see."

Jor's pal:
" man... i don't know if that's all a good idea"

Jor:
"...well that's just the start.. see, all the golden-age, justice society characters are gone. captain marvel is gone. they may or may not show up later. it's all like everything is new and for the first time"

Jor's pal:
" no shazam?"

Jor:
"... wellll... he'll probably turn up down the line, we'll see. but the JSA is out because "superman" is the first, and so it's going to be HIM, and the justice league. no JSA. oh! and ACTION comics is a prequel. ACTION, and maybe DETECTIVE, but definately ACTION is the prequel. it shows how the new DC came to be from superman's perspective. ACTION is the prequel, and SUPERMAN (volume...3?) is the superman right now.

also- all the wildstorm characters are.."

Jor's pal:
"...whats wildstorm..?

Jor:
" never mind- basically, you have all new issue 1's, and it all starts over from scratch.
except for batman and green lantern. whatever has happened in the last few years with green lantern and batman is still relevant- but they'll start over with new #1's anyway. "

Jor's pal:
"... and this is supposed to be LESS confusing..? "

thats it. i left out where my 11 year old interupted because the lack of shazam almost made him catatonic.

but there ya go- a "newbie" the quote-unquote target of DC - and again i SWEAR i did not bias him against it- saw the new suit, heard the premise AS DC billed it and it was completely flat.

now, don't get me wrong- i'll still look at superman (as will Jor's pal) but it's far from enthralling.

it seems like another partial-ret-con, partial status quo as we have seen time and time again. IF the quality is good, i will be happy. but DC has not at all demonstrated any interest in consistant quality. sure, as didio says, they may hand down arbitrary orders, asking for unrealistic goals to satisfy a marketing camapign, and they may be willing to fire people for not making deadline, or for poor sales. but i see no interest in quality. if that were the case, they'd scale waaaay back on the 52-80 titles.
better to do 20-30 titles, and then add one-shots and mini's.

[Jor-L5150]

Jun 26, 2011 18:34:47 GMT -5 Valentine Smith said:

Nowhere in this, or any, thread have I advocated buying all 52 of these #1s. Quite the opposite.
But,

it's a stunt to get in desperately necessary new readers, without whom, there will BE no comic publishing industry in ten years time.

So yes, it's time to not complain about nonsense like continuity or what order the books are supposed to go in the longbox and instead say focus on things like, "Wow! The guy who wrote one of the most highly regarded Superman stories of all time is in charge of the Superman reboot?


And it's ballsy. It's a real go-for-broke maneuver here.

It is NO COINCIDENCE that DC is doing this right after the Harry Potter franchise comes to an end. WB wants their next "Harry Potter franchise" to come from the DCU. They're looking to see if ANY of these books can be used as an entry level "Volume 1" type jumping on point for new readers, just as surely as anyone who sees a Harry Potter film

-i didnt mean to imply you were shilling for them. i too, have a very limited budget, and i have been chasing down geoff johns superman to catch up!

-new comic readers? we have to accept that print media is dying. its a dinosaur watching that comet fly towards the ground. i don't llike it , but it is.
comics will die. in our lifetime. the characters will ive on. in other media.

- i don't see "ballsy". i see arbitrary and over-used ret-con gimmicks. "ballsy" would have had the oroginal golden-age characters- of which superman IS the first- and had THAT be the "foundation" of DC, in modern times. then, a couple years from now, bring in the silver-age.
ballsy, would have been to do a TRUE DC-wide relaunch- instead of the confusing "superman and wonder woman re-imagined/ green lantern and batman stay status quo"

- i have no doubt WB is looking for the NEXT cash-cow tent-pole franchise. i HOPE its a dc comics character. any of them. shazam? flash? i'll take it. i hope theresa comic book charcater that OWNS hollywood for the next 10 years. i truly do. but this is not a sign that will happen.

[Valentine Smith]

It's incredibly ballsy. You don't have to like it, but it is. You don't think DC editorial didn't KNOW the kind of nerd-rage a maneuver like this would stir up? They know damn well that they're gonna lose a bunch of long-time readers over this, and they're gambling that it will be offset by digital revenues, TV advertising, and yes...new readers.

This is a hail mary by DC. If it fails (and it very well might!), I guarantee you that at this time next year we won't have Dan Didio to kick around anymore.

My philosophy is twofold.

1) CONTINUITY IS FOR CRETINS. Every ten years or so, no matter who's running the show for what company, continuity becomes unwieldy and the numbers have to get fudged. Letting expansive continuity ruin your enjoyment of otherwise good books is absolutely Simpsons Comic Book Guy behavior and needs to be stamped out. You accept that it's fiction and that it's a new editorial direction, get over it, start a new longbox, and move on.
Example: No matter how many years pass in Marvel Comics these days, it's generally accepted that the Fantastic Four, Spidey, and Hulk have been operating for about 15 years, and most of the 2nd tier characters for about 10. But why has Spidey aged comparitively in "real-time" (Marvel U Spidey is roughly 25-28) while other characters haven't? WHO FUCKING CARES?!?!?!?!? In DC it's generally assumed that Superman and Batman have been operating for about 10 years or so. BUT, no matter what, and despite the fact that Dick Grayson and Wally West have aged considerably MORE than those ten years in that time, it makes for great comics, therefore, it should be ignored. It's stupid to think that at some point ANY of these characters should be retired because he becomes editorially "too old" and must pass the mantle. And people who say they want to see that happen are either liars or basement-dwelling virgins.

This leads me to...

2) ONLY BUY STUFF YOU ENJOY BY CREATORS YOU LIKE (or are willing to take a chance on) and STOP THE MINUTE YOU STOP ENJOYING THE BOOK. By doing this, and not allowing yourself to be suckered into multi-book crossovers and continuity lawyering, you guarantee yourself a pleasant trip to the shop every Wednesday.

Example: There are what, EIGHT Batman books on the market? For the last 5 years, I have bought one per month. Whichever one Grant Morrison is writing. With ONE story arc exception (and one arc in five years is an acceptable ratio to me), I have NEVER been forced to buy the other BatBooks to know what is going on in the BatBook I WANT to read. This is sound editorial policy and should be celebrated.

These two philosophies mean that I won't get suckered into buying shit I don't want to buy, and I guarantee you that I thoroughly enjoy the vast majority of the books I buy. This is why I can be excited about Grant Morrison on Superman or Gail Simone on Batgirl, because these are two brilliant writers, and I know they're gonna make this shit work, red underpants or no red underpants, wheelchair or no wheelchair.

[MAVERICK]

Cant wait for this to all fail & blow over & be changed back.


At least now I'll have time to catch up on some classic Superman titles. Real Superman titles.

[Valentine Smith]

Hate to break it to you, but the Superman titles have been borderline unreadable for the last few years. Johns/Frank aside, Action and Superman have been dreadful, dreadful books. And before we got those scattered (and awesome) Johns/Frank books, they were equally bad. ANYTHING is better than what we've had.

Also, Mav...I seem to remember you boycotting Secret Origin because you felt they were "Smallvill-izing" Superman. Changed your tune, have you? Trust the talent involved, not the blowback.

[Jor-L5150]

oh, i'm no continuity slave at all.

i gave up on it a long time ago. ask mav, we've discussed this endlessly.
IF the story at hand is good, then enjoy it.
it does NO good at all to marry it to anything else.

heck, "all-star superman" was OUTside "continuity". we both loved that, val. ( i just picked up the blu-ray today)

continuity?
that's NOT my beef at all.
i'm simply saying that DC is trying to make comics newbie friendly, but they are only making it MORE convoluted.

it might be "ballsy" to you, but it's fool-hearty to me.
DC has been operated by "jackass" for several years now.

[Valentine Smith]

I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the people crying and dropping books because they're worried about how they're going to fit in their precious little white boxes.

It's ballsy because it's a genuine risk, with very real consequences if it fails. Had they tried this in the 80s or 90s when circulation was at an all-time high, then yeah, it would just be a dumb stunt. But to do it right now, when they're hanging by a thread? Brass balls.

Trust me. Heads are gonna roll if this fails. Didio (to his credit...and you won't hear me say that much) has talked about what a short leash they have for underperforming or (worse) LATE books.

Personally, I HOPE it succeeds...as long as the product is good. I'll see in September.

[MAVERICK]

Jun 27, 2011 18:28:26 GMT -5 Valentine Smith said:

Also, Mav...I seem to remember you boycotting Secret Origin because you felt they were "Smallvill-izing" Superman. Changed your tune, have you? Trust the talent involved, not the blowback.

A friend re-assured me that the stink of Smallville in the book was minimal.
He was right.

[Jor-L5150]

well, i want what's best for the characters.
DC DOES have a HUUUUUUGE burden of proof.

we will be keeping a close-eye on this....

[MAVERICK]

I wont ;D

[crazy_asian_man]

Well, DC has sold out for years, with zero respect for its own history. Only makes sense that they leave their original offices. But with "Green Lantern's" grosses, they might want to keep one office cubicle in New York, if they have to move back....

oh, please. 1700 Broadway is NOT their "original offices". They were on 5th Avenue for like, 30 years before that, and somewhere ELSE before that. It's real estate, not artistic integrity.

Was making a joke, albeit a weak one with that 'original offices/cubicle' bit. A great comedian I'm not....

[Valentine Smith]

Whoops! My bad, CAM!

[Valentine Smith]

A few other little things I've managed to glean from various sources...

Action and JLA are DEFINITELY set in the past. But, in the case of JLA, it's ONLY for the first arc. I wonder if this is true for Action as well? Clearly, these are the two most important books in the relaunch.

Also, I don't think we have to worry about Superman's origins being changed all that drastically. At the retailer roadshow, they pointed specifically to the fact that the Death Of Superman story, for example, DID happen. I still think the biggest change we're gonna see is the removal of the marriage (THANK FUCKING CHRIST), and everything else will be "Man Of Steel" style streamlining and tweaking.

It looks like the only characters that are full-blown reboots are Aquaman, Hawkman, Captain Atom, and maybe Green Arrow. In other words, characters that were completely fucked to begin with, so it's all for the best. Supes and Wonder Woman appear to be softer reboots.

It's still unclear what all this means for Wally West, the Shazam family, and the JSA. I still think the JSA have been moved off to Earth 2 or some such, which, well, makes sense. And quite frankly, you won't find a bigger Shazam fan than me, but he's never really worked quite right in the DCU proper. He's had his moments here and there, but for the most part, the Marvel Family works best in their own universe with the occasional interdimensional crossover. I'm pretty much OK with them being gone, as long as, at some point, they find a writer/artist team who can ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING GOOD WITH THEM.

[crazy_asian_man]

Whoops! My bad, CAM!

It's all good, Val! MY bad for not having a funnier punch line!


About the comic book debate:
I don't mind about the whole thing, and I hear what you're saying about buying only from the creators you want to follow-

But I think I'm just frustrated because I'll buy a current book, and/or stay for a few issues & then feel like it's hard to get into because I don't KNOW these characters anymore - or their situations - because so much time has passed, and sloppy alternate crashing timeline stories of one sort or another happen comic-studio wide such that I can't even tell anymore whether or not the history I grew up with, or even recently, happened or didn't happen to this/that character, because of so MANY retcons/mini-reboots/time travel/whatever.

Good stories are good stories- but when each story has a partially consistent/inconsistent past history reference, it's hard to feel too connected to it, and it bugs me. (Totally understandable criticism of SR, as well)

I do want comics to exist, but it feels more like killing something you love, restuffing it, chopping off limbs, and repainting it over and over again because it's not considered beautiful enough.

Now, if you told me that it's going to ONLY be the same writer/artist GUARANTEED for 5-10 years, that might be different- but that'll never happen.....

Anyhow- as long as they keep printing the old classics in gorgeous hardbacks, I'm happy....
(I assume I'm keeping the industry alive anyways by purchasing these...)