Superman II (Theatrical) Commentary

[Knight]

Superman II,is the commentary worth listening to,or is it just going to leave me with discontent at the massive finger they showed Donner?

Any interesting points raised other than ''Cheaper By The Sequel''. ?

Any one else listened to it?, thoughts?

[Knight]

Quite interesting. They state that the humour in this (SII) is like the 3rd act in STM,Otis comic book etc...


I have always thought that with STM the comedy was fine but with II they pushed that humour a little too far...a bit too silly. Ice cream,man on skates...


Did Clarke fall into the fire on purpose? -Salkind. Never thought of that before,interesting...

We had seen the gun and bullet in the first one. The fire was unexpected... Spengler.

I like this,it's like a plant... the contrast with him catching the bullet,fainting etc... the subtle introduction of the love theme. The pay off comes in II with a gun,as a result the love comes full circle...


Had both versions of II been fully shot,Donner's II with a new Williams score previewed against Lester's II and which ever version got the highest rating got the full release. (crazy as that sounds,I know)

I wonder which version would have came out trumps... ??

[cypher85]

I say give it a listen. I enjoy hearing any commentary regarding the production of the films. It's interesting to listen to Ilya and Pierre discuss the films. Did you listen to their commentary on STM. If so and you enjoyed it, or at least found it worth your time, then def give SII theatrical commentary a listen.

[EnriqueH]

I liked the Salkind commentary on all three films.

[cypher85]

Agreed.

[Knight]

I had only listened to the Donner Manc commentary but not with Ilya and Spengler. I will go back to STM and give it a listen. Also,give SIII a go too.

This II commentary has been really interesting... Good to hear both sides of the same story,definitely.

It's good cos' commentaries are good for pointing out things you wouldn't have otherwise picked up on.

[ye5man]

Salkind digresses a little too much, which makes me laugh, he sounds an interesting guy. No bitterness on his part anyway; too much time has passed. I'm grateful they recorded a commentary.

There's not really a lot of comedy in 2, its quite dark in places. Much more humour in the others.

[TylerDurden389]

Nov 29, 2011 11:42:31 GMT -5 ye5man said:

he sounds an interesting guy. No bitterness on his part anyway; too much time has passed. I'm grateful they recorded a commentary.

To me what is interesting is that the guy who caused all the friction is the one with the least amount of grudges, decades later. Donner is still bitter and Lester is simply completely M.I.A. Imagine if it were the other way around. Imagine if Donner AND Lester were able to come to a mutual agreement, and instead of having 2 inferior versions of one movie, we'd have one ULTIMATE movie that 2 directors, while different in style, could meet somewhere in the middle. Now THAT would be super.

[crazy_asian_man]

I love commentary (for the most part).... Listening to the other side of the story is always important, imo.

After listening to it, I realized that both the Salkinds' chutzpah and money and Donner's tremendous talent were needed to make STM what it was- at the time.....WB had owned the property forever and just SAT on it.

SUCH a pity that, if Salkind & Donner had to part ways, that they couldn't do it AFTER SII.....but at least we got half of the SII that Donner made...

To me what is interesting is that the guy who caused all the friction is the one with the least amount of grudges, decades later. Donner is still bitter and Lester is simply completely M.I.A. Imagine if it were the other way around. Imagine if Donner AND Lester were able to come to a mutual agreement, and instead of having 2 inferior versions of one movie, we'd have one ULTIMATE movie that 2 directors, while different in style, could meet somewhere in the middle. Now THAT would be super.

THAT part I blame solely on Lester. Lester was there, saw how hard Donner had worked on the film, and could easily (when given the job) have kept Mank's script as a guideline and tried to keep the vision Donner had- if only in tone. But, NO....

Instead, Lester's career had stalled at the time, wanted the money that he says the Salkinds owed him- and most likely saw it as a way to have a comeback by cannibalizing Donner's footage- and, together with the Salkinds- do a Frankenstein operation and 'make' it his own film.

The film works, but parts of it are great because of Donner, not Lester. Yeah, Lester will always have the 'shirt rip' sequence and the credits recap, but that's about it. He'll also have SIII, which nobody seems to worship.

He COULD have tried to just finish it as Donner's vision- but, he saw an opportunity to jump back into making movies on Donner's footage, and took it.

[crazy_asian_man]

Salkind digresses a little too much, which makes me laugh, he sounds an interesting guy. No bitterness on his part anyway; too much time has passed. I'm grateful they recorded a commentary.

There's not really a lot of comedy in 2, its quite dark in places. Much more humour in the others.

The dark (the good stuff) was with Donner, for the most part.

I disagree about the comedy- There's wayyy too much in 2- (East Houston & the Metro battle are the worst offenders imo) but I guess it's a matter of what feels right.... but I guess if you thought it wasn't that much comedy in S2, I can see why you would feel that SR was TOOO serious/dark.

All a matter of different tastes.....

[ye5man]

THAT part I blame solely on Lester.

Why? Donner wasn't coming back. If not Lester then it would have been someone else

They had to do re-shoots ... blah blah ... 50% director's credit. Lester has his own style, a very good one incidentally.

I think the only fault of Lester is just not calling Donner to get his blessing. Then again, why should he? Would you want the guy who took over your job after you were fired to ask your blessing?

[ye5man]

comedy- There's wayyy too much in 2- (East Houston

Really? I saw mostly violence in that part.

You get a few daft gags, man on skates etc, but overall its surprising how little comedy is in the film.


At least it had a sense of humour unlike SR

[atp]

Why assume that Donner's S2 would have been better than Lester's?

We aren't living pre-2006 anymore and the blinkers are off.

[ye5man]

Agreed. Probably for the best

*dodges rotten fruit*

[Knight]

You know,I kinda got the impression that Salkind was more impartial, unfortunately between Spengler and Donner.

After all,they could have cut out Donner's little cameo as they,and I quote ''get final cut'' as producers. Salkind was very complementary towards Donner,which I thought was very gentleman like.

However,I didn't like the fact that he never even mentioned Superman getting his powers back. That cut now from the crystal to Non in the W/H seems very abrupt.

I did like how both parties were in awe and gave Christopher Reeve immensely flattering compliments,duly deserved. From performances to looks. They credited Margo a lot on the former too.

Didn't know that Williams sat in on a screening of SII and still opted out of scoring it. Was this out of loyalty to Donner? Maybe.

So Puzo joked saying that Superman possibly resuscitating Lois at one point? -How about using a ''kiss'' to resuscitate ??

The amnesia kiss marking the end of the fairy tale? Never looked at it like that before.

Indeed Lester's II is superior to Donner's. But, it's not a fair argument giving Donner never finished his film.

The writing is better in TDC but the performances are not fully realized. As where TLC is poorly written but masterfully performed...


''How am I supposed to win a Pulitzer prize writing about a pink bear?'' Yea,you know it's a sh!t idea,as much as we do...stick to the blank bullets...

[crazy_asian_man]

Why? Donner wasn't coming back. If not Lester then it would have been someone else

They had to do re-shoots ... blah blah ... 50% director's credit. Lester has his own style, a very good one incidentally.

If someone else, it could have been someone who might have seen what was trying to be done with the first one (treating the material as if it were the life story of a real historical character for the most part) and treat it as if it were trying to preserve film history.... but, you like Lester's style, and think it's very good (I loved 3 musketeers myself, but it was not the right fit imo for completing Donner's version).

If Lester had treated it with more seriousness, I might not be as harsh.

[crazy_asian_man]

Why assume that Donner's S2 would have been better than Lester's?

#1: Look at the scripts. Tell me which one is better.

#2: The slapstick at the end of the Metro Battle is Lester's doing- it's not even in the revised script. (Though apparently some fans LOVE that shtick. All preference.)

#3: Look beyond the two and look at Lester's movies and Donner's movies made shortly after ("Ladyhawke" and "Inside Moves" as most immediate. On Lester's side, he has...."Superman III"- which was pure Lester).

#4: Ultimately, depends on what you like--- to me, Donner's version (The Thau edit doesn't count- it's not a finished movie, and is trying to force in old scores to match the movie timing) with Mank's script is by far better- and Donner's scenes go way beyond Lester's.

"Better" is subjective to what you like. There's always a chance that a filmmaker will disappoint, but we have the script + other movies the filmmaker has done to get a good guess who would have made the better film at the time, with the resources then.

[crazy_asian_man]

Didn't know that Williams sat in on a screening of SII and still opted out of scoring it. Was this out of loyalty to Donner? Maybe.

So Puzo joked saying that Superman possibly resuscitating Lois at one point? -How about using a ''kiss'' to resuscitate ??

The amnesia kiss marking the end of the fairy tale? Never looked at it like that before.

Indeed Lester's II is superior to Donner's. But, it's not a fair argument giving Donner never finished his film.

The writing is better in TDC but the performances are not fully realized. As where TLC is poorly written but masterfully performed...

It's my impression over time that Spengler was the guy who had to deliver the bad news during production--- More of a messenger than a decider.... but I could be wrong.

I agree with all of this- a screen test isn't a finished scene. Lester's finished product isn't the same thing as the RDC cut. I still say that if they were going to release it in such a rough form as a 'intended movie' that they REALLY follow the script and use storyboards that were made up (If they still exist) for spots where Donner wasn't able to shoot.

[Knight]

When Spengler said during the orange juice,just friends scene; ''here starts the competition between Clark and Superman,which comes to ahead in Superman III''. (or words to that effect)

That is the first time I have ever made any connection between II and III at all. Interesting.

[atp]

Nov 29, 2011 14:11:04 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Why assume that Donner's S2 would have been better than Lester's?

#1: Look at the scripts. Tell me which one is better.

Actually, it's hard to say.

Lester's script doesn't have nonsense like:
- Lois jumping out of the Daily Planet window
- Blank bullets scene
- Lame lines like, "I failed you. I failed myself and ... all humanity. I traded my birthright for a life of submission in a world that's now ruled by your enemies...."

[crazy_asian_man]

Actually, it's hard to say.
Lester's script doesn't have nonsense like:
- Lois jumping out of the Daily Planet window
- Blank bullets scene
- Lame lines like, "I failed you. I failed myself and ... all humanity. I traded my birthright for a life of submission in a world that's now ruled by your enemies...."

I liked those scenes, so as I always say--- it is subjective.

But here's another litmus test: with the scenes that exist in the theatrical SII--- which scenes do you prefer more (going by actual screen time) - do you find more of what you enjoy by Donner or Lester?

[ye5man]

At Lester's has Superman appearing in the first two acts!

[Valentine Smith]

Personally, I prefer Donner's shooting script by far to the Lester version, however even that is deeply flawed.

In other words, Superman II was ALWAYS doomed to be a shitty sequel, no matter what. In trying to save money and cut corners (something that we seem to only accuse modern studio execs of doing) they were going to push a not fully-realized/developed/properly vetted and re-written script into production.

Superman II...ANY version of Superman II is only objectively "good" based on a few performances, some great special effects (some of which still hold up), and that's it. Everything else is either nostalgia factor or simply "because it's Superman". It's not a very good movie, especially when you judge it against other big-budget fantasy movies of its time like STM, Star Wars, ESB, or Raiders, NONE of which cop-out the way any version of SII does.

Neither version had a satisfactory ending (in fact, both are quite fucking stupid). Lois jumping out the window is roughly as retarded as the extra powers and slapstick at the end of TLC, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I will always enjoy SII, whichever version I'm watching (although, to be honest, I tend to reach for The Donner Cut more often, despite it just being, essentially, a bonus disc). It's an important part of my life. But, I no longer delude myself that it's actually any good. In fact, I remember a few years before the Donner Cut was released, I was watching the Lester version with a couple of friends, and by the time we got to Niagara Falls, there was that heavy, uncomfortable feeling in the room...we all realized "This movie sucks". The script is barely realized and juvenile, the re-shoots are painfully obvious, and it just meanders along until the final act, when things finally improve.

It's better than the next three, but if that isn't "damning with faint praise", then I don't know what is.

[ye5man]

I honestly think its a solid entry to the series (Lester/theatrical). Good plot, good execution. There is no way I can label it as "shitty". Its not a boring film either.

[Valentine Smith]

"search your feelings..."