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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 1, 2012 13:45:50 GMT -5
He definitely seems a bit more like "Superboy" than "Superman" in that moment--- it could have been played different, but the comedic scene that plays before (of Clark semi-spying on Lois during the press conference) makes them BOTH seem like kids at heart- especially when Lois blushes at the note, so I was cool with it.
Speaking of how Supes is characterized.... on a similar note...
The characterization of Supes in the Donner films.... well.... on the surface, we get 'landmark moments' of who he basically is, but the difference I saw between the comics and STM's Superman is that the one in the movies (in STM anyways) was played as VERY naive and childlike at the start of his Metropolis career.
In many ways, I think the deleted scene where Superman actually is overcome with emotion to 'hug' his dad, then realize that the projection isn't REALLY his dad, and he's embarrassed is more telling to what kind of characterization that Donner and Reeve decided on.
(Would LOVE to have heard the deep discussions that Donner and Reeve must have had for the character, with Donner being an 'actor's director' and head over heels for the project)
With that scene re-inserted, looking at the whole of STM, I think Supes reveals himself to REALLY never have gotten over the death of his adopted father under the surface, his desire to have both of his fathers in his life again--- and suggest (without falling into) Superman's longing for family connection, behind the rest.
Supes' 'reaching out for dad' is a small moment, but far more moving and revealing, I think, than I realized in telling how Donner/Reeve felt about who Supes was, as well as the humor and joy in the city rescues/etc.
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Mar 1, 2012 14:04:38 GMT -5
I think that's the idea. Over the 2 films he loses a great deal of innocence.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Mar 1, 2012 14:06:21 GMT -5
Ugh, you guys are right. I honestly forgot about the turning around and going the other direction part. My face is red. Sorry about that guys.
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Post by Chancellor Todd on Mar 1, 2012 14:14:03 GMT -5
I think testing of that nature would typically be done over the ocean so they could put them down over the water if something went wrong.n They'd both be launched from ships. Doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to launch them from land bases. If they were testing the rockets why would they need live bombs/warheads in the first place? Thats insane. The bombs themselves would be tested on a proving ground. It makes even less sense that the missles would be driven around on public roadways with so few personnel that a rogue semi driver could distract them all. (Unless we're extremely generous and say that the warheads were attached to the missiles after they arrived at the base.) |
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Post by Tristan D on Mar 1, 2012 18:18:31 GMT -5
1# They say that the planet is going to explode, but they clearly show both the planet and the red krypton sun exploding. Supernova maybe, but then why say the planet is exploding or shifting its orbit, rather than 'This planet will be blasted away / destroyed'.
2# I don't think it's clear enough why Jor-El and Lara don't try and make a dash for it with Kal-El. I can only assume that he puts his word to the Council over his parental responsibilities.
3#Something that bugs me is that the angle of the p.o.v camera for Kal-El's space ship is very different to the landing path that it is shown to take when Jonathan and Martha find the ship.
4# Was $40 a week in 1978 enough for a young adult to live in New York? I don't know the answer, but the question always bothers me when I watch the first Daily Planet scene.
5# During the Big Rescue, both Clark and Lois' hat take far too long to get to the bottom of the building.
6# Again, during the Big Rescue, how the heck did those TV crews get there so quick?
7# Lex makes impossible conclusions about the Kryptonite. How does he know it is lethal to Kryptonians? Or that the meteorite is even from Krypton? I'll allow the film to imply there's logic and reason from Lex's 200IQ that he doesn't relate to either Otis or Miss Teschmacher, but based on the information shown, there's no way he could know that.
8# When California starts to fall into the sea - that's got to create a heck of a lot of chaos across the whole state. We only see a fraction of it. I know there are reasons of budget and pacing as to why we don't see the whole of LA or San Francisco being destroyed, but it's somewhat distracting to know that there's much more than just a school bus in danger throughout all this.
9# Lois had plenty of chance to get out of that car before it fell in the hole, and all the earth fell on it.
10# The Time Travel. I accept it as a sweet and resounding way to finish the film - but thinking about it there's no way it makes sense at all unless you start making excuses and coming up with elaborate theories. The film had already established about 20 minutes earlier that Superman is not fast enough to go after two missiles. It then subverts that rule and says he can. Even with the 'rage' driving him, the difference in speed is unbelievable.
As I was growing up, I always thought that she was wearing her nightie in that scene. I don't know why, it just doesn't look much like a dress to me.
Agreed. Although it doesn't really bother me much.
I prefer the Phantom Zone as a place too. Though in fairness in STM and SII it is mostly a device or vehicle to allow them to get to Earth, so expanding upon it more than a sort of stasis device isn't necessary for those films - actually, it would have just been distracting to the story.
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atp
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Post by atp on Mar 2, 2012 3:32:06 GMT -5
How come at Jonathan's funeral, the dialogue wasn't this?
Clark: "All those things I can do. All those powers. And I couldn't even save him. I know I could have!"
Martha: "Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all-powerful, Clark."
Clark: "Well, I should be! Someday I will be! I will be the most powerful Superhero ever! I will even learn to turn the world back and stop people from dying."
Martha: "Clark-"
Clark: "It's all Jor-El's fault! He's jealous! He knows I'm already more powerful than he is. He's holding me back!"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2012 3:47:21 GMT -5
You know that dialogue a little too well. Nevertheless, DAHAHAHHAA!
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Post by booshman on Mar 2, 2012 4:18:15 GMT -5
How come at Jonathan's funeral, the dialogue wasn't this? Clark: "All those things I can do. All those powers. And I couldn't even save him. I know I could have!" Martha: "Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all-powerful, Clark." Clark: "Well, I should be! Someday I will be! I will be the most powerful Superhero ever! I will even learn to turn the world back and stop people from dying." Martha: "Clark-" Clark: "It's all Jor-El's fault! He's jealous! He knows I'm already more powerful than he is. He's holding me back!" NNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  |
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hursty
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Post by hursty on Mar 2, 2012 7:11:57 GMT -5
I could never nit pick at this slice of genius
And I do find Lana attractive
Its one of the best scenes in the franchise.
Thats just it - they aren't so enlightened, they willfully ignore Jor-El fact-based assertion that Krypton would explode, and as Jor-El states in the aforementioned Fortress scene, if not for the 'vanity' of the Krypton council, everyone on the planet could have survived.
Yeah - the many thousands of your years - was a bad, bad line. Lara talks of earth being primitive, she must have been talking about Earth BC. Jor-El's knowledge of Einstein, well, perhaps with his advanced technology, he was able to look into the future at the time when his son would arrive on Earth , and learn about things he'd need to teach his son.
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Melv
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Post by Melv on Mar 2, 2012 7:53:53 GMT -5
If he could do that he could just show the council the future of Krypton and everyone could be saved!
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hursty
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Post by hursty on Mar 2, 2012 9:30:59 GMT -5
They wouldn't listen to him, even with that proof
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 2, 2012 10:38:41 GMT -5
The extended version shows that they had access to either stock, second unit footage, or licensed footage of houses falling apart with people running around.... but it did look a bit cheap. I hear you about the school bus--- but I'm amazed how, at the time, how much the sound effects of the disaster and cross-cutting worked for me on making it seem like a huge catastrophe..... now, though, while it works--- it's a little easier to pick apart the short-cuts for the major disaster (licensed footage from "The Swarm" with the train for example). I am shocked, though, at how gigantic the actual bridge model was (from photos showing model builders standing next to it/working on the model).... I hate to mention it, but never was that big a fan of Derek Meddings' miniature work. When I saw it onscreen, I was always amazed that the REAL model was much huger than it looked on film.  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 2, 2012 10:39:15 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 2, 2012 10:46:36 GMT -5
I think he would have lost more if he found out (as he does in the comics) that you CAN'T change time or bring people back from the dead.
Probably the main black eye of the movie series storywise, alongside memory kiss and finger-beam powers.
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Post by booshman on Mar 2, 2012 11:54:47 GMT -5
Its one of the best scenes in the franchise. Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. So many lines leave me scratching my head. "You enjoyed it"
"I don't know what to say father, I just got carried away"
"I anticipated this my son..."
"You couldn't have, you couldn't have imagined..."
"How good it felt?"Supes comes over as very naive. And in what way did he get carried away? He saved a load of people, which is exactly what he went out to do. We must have joined the conversation just after he told Jor-El about the "bad vibrations" line. "You are revealed to the world, so be it". How long did he think he would remain unknown in an outfit like that.
"You must still keep your secret identity."
"Why?"Really Supes? 12 years of training, learning who you really are and what you have to do, and after one outing you think dropping the dual identity. "28 hours a day"As mentioned before, pretty silly of Jor-El. "24, as it is in Earth time"This line just sounds odd to me.
"Your help would be called for endlessly, even for those tasks which human beings could solve themselves".That could happen nomatter if they know his real identity or not, doesn't make much sense to me. I guess he hasn't seen Superman IV. All this dialogue and then ending with Supes reaching out to hug a huge floating head representation of his dead father.  Also, the inconsistent look of Reeve due to the time the scene was filmed, and the place it's edited into the film just don't do it for me. Now don't get me wrong, I love this film to bits, but this is a thread for nitpicking. |
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Post by Jimbo on Mar 2, 2012 13:09:27 GMT -5
I've never quite understood the "by that reckoning, I've been dead many thousands of your years" line. Was it just hyperbole? As in, it was so long ago for Clark since he was a baby that it was like millenia ago?
If it was "many thousands of your years", then the journey would have begun during the dawn of man, and that would have made no damn sense. ;D
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atp
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Post by atp on Mar 2, 2012 15:42:37 GMT -5
Its one of the best scenes in the franchise. Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. So many lines leave me scratching my head. "You enjoyed it"
"I don't know what to say father, I just got carried away"
"I anticipated this my son..."
"You couldn't have, you couldn't have imagined..."
"How good it felt?"Supes comes over as very naive. And in what way did he get carried away? He saved a load of people, which is exactly what he went out to do. We must have joined the conversation just after he told Jor-El about the "bad vibrations" line. "You are revealed to the world, so be it". How long did he think he would remain unknown in an outfit like that.
"You must still keep your secret identity."
"Why?"Really Supes? 12 years of training, learning who you really are and what you have to do, and after one outing you think dropping the dual identity. "28 hours a day"As mentioned before, pretty silly of Jor-El. "24, as it is in Earth time"This line just sounds odd to me.
"Your help would be called for endlessly, even for those tasks which human beings could solve themselves".That could happen nomatter if they know his real identity or not, doesn't make much sense to me. I guess he hasn't seen Superman IV. All this dialogue and then ending with Supes reaching out to hug a huge floating head representation of his dead father. Also, the inconsistent look of Reeve due to the time the scene was filmed, and the place it's edited into the film just don't do it for me. Now don't get me wrong, I love this film to bits, but this is a thread for nitpicking. That deleted scene would have made more sense if it came after the interview/can you read my mind scene. The whole "carried away" thing and "how good it felt" stuff could then have been referring to flying with Lois. |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Mar 2, 2012 16:00:28 GMT -5
THANK YOU Booshman for saying all that. I agree with you on ALL counts. I can still remember thinking "WTF?" the first time I saw this scene. Completely out of character and did not belong in the film. Of all the footage that was cut for the theatrical, THIS is one that IMO should have never, EVER seen the light of day.
Those of you who've been here a while now have seen me try to make this scene work in my S2 cut. And out of context, a few of the lines can work if placed elsewhere, but in the context of the scene itself, it is completely out of place.
As an aside, (and as a film buff) it's interesting to see early on into filming how Donner and co. weren't exactly sure where to take these characters, but in the context of the film it fails on all levels.
Whew, sorry for the rant. After hearing "one of best scenes in the franchise" I had to try REALLY HARD not to say all this earlier.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 2, 2012 16:00:53 GMT -5
I'm so glad that Thau decided NOT to put this deleted scene in after Supes and Lois slept together...  |
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Keith
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Post by Keith on Mar 2, 2012 16:02:18 GMT -5
;D ;D  ;D ;D |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 2, 2012 16:04:17 GMT -5
The dialogue is so-so....but it IS neat to see Reeve and Brando interacting with each other in his Superman costume (albeit with the funky Cavill haircut)  .... The 'hug' though.... as I mentioned before, highlights a new dimension about how much he misses/missed the father figure in his life--- and by having it- it resonates more with all the other father scenes, imo. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2012 21:35:45 GMT -5
Nitpick #11 of classic STM: ATM and Ye5man's inability to talk about any other subject on the planet without turning it into a remark about their raging supressed hidden love for SR. You can understand it though, its hard to imagine you nitpicking SR and thats absolutely full of flaws |
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Post by EnriqueH on Mar 2, 2012 22:08:01 GMT -5
1. Glenn Ford's death is a little TOO realistic and heart-wrenching for me to enjoy.
2. The backwards shot during Air Force One
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 2:27:08 GMT -5
If anyone you know and care about dies and you watch STM soon thereafter, skip Jon's death. Skip the fuck out of it. It's...rough.
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hursty
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Post by hursty on Mar 3, 2012 2:28:48 GMT -5
1. Glenn Ford's death is a little TOO realistic and heart-wrenching for me to enjoy. I don't think you are ever supposed to enjoy someone's death. Pa's death was PERFECT in its impact on Clark and his inability to save his father Booshman - the first night scene for me is one of the highlights of the film and extremely important. It explicitly explains the reason why he must keep his secret identity despite being revealed to world. The acting and emotion by both actors, along with the music is what makes it amazing As for 28 hours a day, that was cool, jor-el anticipating that Kal-el would correct him. Love it |
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