You will Believe...The DVD Documentary

[hursty]

I'm just watching this for the first time, fantastic honest recollections from Donner, Salkind, Spengler and a host of acting talent.

Donner still holds a massive grudge. I'd love to see them all sit on a table together and thrash it out. I found Ilya very funny, his impressions of Puzo and Brando were hilarious.

And Brando reading the tree poem and then singing 'the campfire ladies sing this song...doo dah....doo dah' in his brooding Jor-El voice. That's an LOL moment. Brando has such a bad rep but from cast recollections in the Godfather and Superman is that he was freaking hilarious on set.

Kidder hasn't aged well, Douglas looks pretty good.

It was also excellent to see footage of Donner filming scenes from SII, to actually prove he was the principal director and not Lester. I don't think I'd ever seen that before.

I'd love to read a comprehensive book about the whole production and the filming schedule etc.

[Kamdan]

I'm just so glad that we got the Salkinds' side of the story in this documentary. Thau made them look like they were cheap asses, like Cannon, in his documentaries. They were the ones giving those films their high budgets, but Donner was essential in it being money well spent. To be honest, I'd rather chat about the films with Ilya Salkind than Richard Donner. I can't help but feel that much of Donner's passion faded off, which is why the Superman II TDC suffered, but that happens with age. He ain't no Ridley Scott when he did the Blade Runner final cut.

[hursty]

You can't blame Donner at all.

Directors need to be left alone to direct, the producers need to put their trust in him. Nearly every actor in the film has nothing but good things to say about him.

Hiring Lester as an on-set go-between is bang out of order and undermined Donner badly.

The Salkinds had nothing to worry about, so why the interference?

I think Alex Salkind was the real tyrant anyway, Ilya seems such a hilarious guy.

[Kamdan]

Yep, no doubt. Donner was really into it when he was making the film as it is reflected in his work and it was a real crushing blow to be treated the way he was, by getting fired from finishing the second film, but as Salkind and Spengler pointed out that if you're bad mouthing the producers in the press, you're not going to be treated lightly. In Thau's documentary, it came off like the Salkinds did it on a whelm. That's why it's good to hear both sides of the story, because even when I first saw that portion of the documentary, I knew something was off.

[Jimbo]

Mar 15, 2012 9:11:20 GMT -5 hursty said:

The Salkinds had nothing to worry about, so why the interference?

They had plenty to worry about. They were already forced to delay the release six months from June 1978. If they hadn't stopped work on Superman II (which I believe was Lester's idea), the film would have continued to go overbudget and behind schedule, and would not have come out until summer 1979 at the earliest. Delays upon delays do nothing to help a movie's positive buzz.

Didn't the Salkinds have to sell off some of their rights in the movie to WB in order to get it paid for?

In retrospect, they should have shot the movies one at a time. Donner would have had a much easier shoot - which I would say was definitely the Salkinds' fault. Way too ambitious.

[hursty]

Lester's idea which contradicted The Salkinds and not Donner

Films are often delayed, often overbudget, its not the first time it'd happened and won't be the last. Brando and Hackman's presence almost GUARANTEED box office success so they really needed to relax. Donner had just made arguably the greatest horror film of them all, he was hot. The way he was treated was a disgrace.

[crazy_asian_man]

In retrospect, they should have shot the movies one at a time. Donner would have had a much easier shoot - which I would say was definitely the Salkinds' fault. Way too ambitious.

On the flip side....looking back at it all, if they DIDN'T shoot back to back, we wouldn't have had all that great Donner footage that he DID shoot. Pity he threw that script of SII in the trash with his handwritten notes on it when he was fired..... it's a historical document I would LOVED to have seen.

[hursty]

Say what you want about the rights and wrongs, but Lester's camp is unforgivable.

[crazy_asian_man]

Say what you want about the rights and wrongs, but Lester's camp is unforgivable.

AGREED 1000%!

They had plenty to worry about. They were already forced to delay the release six months from June 1978. If they hadn't stopped work on Superman II (which I believe was Lester's idea), the film would have continued to go overbudget and behind schedule, and would not have come out until summer 1979 at the earliest. Delays upon delays do nothing to help a movie's positive buzz.

Didn't the Salkinds have to sell off some of their rights in the movie to WB in order to get it paid for?

I think Jimbo has some good points- I agree that the Salkinds do deserve credit for even getting the money to get the movie made- if they were running out, that's one thing- but Lester is the villain here imo.

He would have gotten the same money if he kept to the tone that Donner intended and kept to the script (or even close to it). Again, I keep on saying it, but I believe it- it was Lester's ego. He didn't have a hit in a long time, and needed his fingerprints to be shown over another guy's vision.


Also, in hindsight, if Lester had done so, he might have even been in better standing with Donner and Hollywood in the long run. If a few fans think Donner got screwed by Lester, I'm sure that some in Hollywood probably felt the same way. If Lester stayed with the same tone and really just finished it Donner's way- then he might have gotten more respect all the way around.

[hursty]

Without even thinking it would be resented by EVERYONE. He just had to get that 'of course he's Jewish' line in.

Money wasn't a problem for them really was it? Merchandising and sponsorship on that movie must have been CRAZY

[Kamdan]

After reading Donner and Mankiewicz's script for Superman II, I must say that I enjoyed the changes they made under Lester's direction, which were mostly derived from the original Puzo and Newmans script. The more campy elements, along with the removal of Marlon Brando were not amongst them.

The villians didn't really do much, beside smash things up and be a threat. The stuff in Idaho helped to develop their characters better, like Zod's apparent voyeurism.

Also, the love angle between Superman and Lois had a more natural feel. I didn't understand why he would be so cool with her tricking him into revealing his identity. It was much more tender under Lester's direction, "Maybe you didn't want to with your mind, but maybe you wanted to with your heart." Also, the way their Fortress date was written under Donner's direction was way too lovey dovey.

I would have like to have seen what Donner would have done with the Metropolis battle, as it was much more brutal in his version.

[crazy_asian_man]

After reading Donner and Mankiewicz's script for Superman II, I must say that I enjoyed the changes they made under Lester's direction, which were mostly derived from the original Puzo and Newmans script. The more campy elements, along with the removal of Marlon Brando were not amongst them.

The villians didn't really do much, beside smash things up and be a threat. The stuff in Idaho helped to develop their characters better, like Zod's apparent voyeurism.

Also, the love angle between Superman and Lois had a more natural feel. I didn't understand why he would be so cool with her tricking him into revealing his identity. It was much more tender under Lester's direction, "Maybe you didn't want to with your mind, but maybe you wanted to with your heart." Also, the way their Fortress date was written under Donner's direction was way too lovey dovey.

I would have like to have seen what Donner would have done with the Metropolis battle, as it was much more brutal in his version.

I thought that the Mank script hit the right tone- the Lester version added a comic dimension to the villains that didn't sit right with me (never did)--- The threat level was maintained under Donner/Mank's.
(Crushing the car with the sheriff inside, the Washington Monument stuff with Zod's full speech I love).

The romantic stuff was sentimental (Supes' "first" kiss with Lois in the FOS) under Donner- but it wasn't cynical, for sure. (And Lois doesn't come off as a pretty unlikeable witch as she does in the Lester version)

In any case, yeah--- the Metro stuff is definitely harsher under Donner. Even if scaled down, the tone in the script was pretty exciting.

[hursty]

I think if Donner had directed it in full at the time and not have to piece old footage together 20 odd years later, many of those elements you dislike wouldn't have been there

I mean, he wouldn't have used bloody screen tests in the final film would he?

[Kamdan]

And again, it could have been something they would have worked on further as they shot it. The script for Mankiewicz's Superman I had many elements that weren't included, like Clark cutting the wheat at super speed before he leaves Smallville.

[crazy_asian_man]

Getting back to the original post....

While I'd love 1,000 hours of interviews with those involved, I have to admit, from looking at other dvd sets- the Box Set extras and "You Will Believe" in particular are (overall) pretty generous helpings of STM material. (Once I get past my own irritation at the hacked-up RDC final presentation)

The story itself of how the Reeve Superman films came together and fell apart is definitely an interesting one, leads one to wonder - even IF - SIV had been (1) complete and (2) a little bit better quality wise- if the movie series was a modest hit (rather than a giant one), if things would have sputtered about for one more Reeve sequel or so, or if the audience would have died out by then?

Despite it's quality, "Supergirl" certainly looks like it had a decent budget, but it didn't garner lines around the block for the first weekend. "Superman IV"'s first day also had zero lines to wait for... BEFORE word of mouth got out.

Here's hoping that DC/WB can put out a nice series of good Superman films that keep the public's interest..... but can't help but wonder how much timing would have played a part in other Reeve Superman films by the time SIV came out- if it was spectacular, word of mouth would have helped- but if it turned out 'moderately good'- would general (lack of) interest have killed off the series anyways by that point?

[hursty]

All the Supes film were pretty heavily marketed weren't they?

Certainly I remember SIV being the talk of school when I was a litt'lun

[Jor-L5150]

Mar 15, 2012 6:43:04 GMT -5 hursty said:

I'm just watching this for the first time, fantastic honest recollections from Donner, Salkind, Spengler and a host of acting talent.

Donner still holds a massive grudge. I'd love to see them all sit on a table together and thrash it out. I found Ilya very funny, his impressions of Puzo and Brando were hilarious.

.

i LOVE terrence stamps impression of brando! ;D

"..terry....did you read the script...what if it's crap?"

[hursty]

Love Stamp man, he looks a great laugh. Would love to share a pint with him and hear some of his stories.

[crazy_asian_man]

All the Supes film were pretty heavily marketed weren't they?
Certainly I remember SIV being the talk of school when I was a litt'lun

The last one went to theatres without allowing critics to preview them...not a good sign... (although ironically, the local critic gave it a decent review! Go figure.)

In looking back at my post and suggesting that people's interest might have trailed off--- I forgot that when "Star Wars" debuted within a few years of STM- when "Empire" and "Return" came out- they were STILL major events-

Leading me to change what I thought previously- if "SIII and SIV" had higher quality, there would have been the same lines around the block as the first one. After all, "Return" still had sizeable crowds many years after the initial "Star Wars', if the quality level was the same, and it wasn't spread out too far from the previous one- perhaps the box office would not have suffered.

[crazy_asian_man]

Love Stamp man, he looks a great laugh. Would love to share a pint with him and hear some of his stories.

Stamp in interviews seems like one of the best actors that doesn't take himself too seriously at all. He had an appearance in the bay area last year(?) to talk about all his films, wish I had made it......

[Deleted]

Jack! YOU BASTARD! COME HERE!

[Tristan D]

I don't think anyone can really take sides completely. Without the Salkind's determination and investment in the project it would never have existed, but without Donner & Mankiewicz the final product is likely to have been akin to SIII (we suspect this, given the direction Lester took it, but under another director who knows what we would have got).

In terms of SII, there are elements of both scripts / films that don't quite sit right to me. Obviously, the camp in Lester's SII is very unwelcome, but the blank-bullets scene just doesn't play as well as the pink-bear scene, particularly because in the former there's very little dénouement exploring their reactions to this revelation - it trivialises what should be a fairly seminal event in their relationship, as much or more so than the Interview and overly long 'Can You Read My Mind' sequence. The pink-bear scene allows their reactions to breathe and develop. We could speculate that the blank bullets scene would have been rewritten or expanded, but as far as I know, neither Dick nor Tom seemed unhappy with the scene as it was written.

[crazy_asian_man]

I don't think anyone can really take sides completely. Without the Salkind's determination and investment in the project it would never have existed, but without Donner & Mankiewicz the final product is likely to have been akin to SIII (we suspect this, given the direction Lester took it, but under another director who knows what we would have got).

In terms of SII, there are elements of both scripts / films that don't quite sit right to me. Obviously, the camp in Lester's SII is very unwelcome, but the blank-bullets scene just doesn't play as well as the pink-bear scene, particularly because in the former there's very little dénouement exploring their reactions to this revelation - it trivialises what should be a fairly seminal event in their relationship, as much or more so than the Interview and overly long 'Can You Read My Mind' sequence. The pink-bear scene allows their reactions to breathe and develop. We could speculate that the blank bullets scene would have been rewritten or expanded, but as far as I know, neither Dick nor Tom seemed unhappy with the scene as it was written.

The problem with the screen test scene is that it's only one sliver of the pieces of the relationship as Donner/Mank planned it out:

In the script, Lois isn't disappointed, it's pure comedy- even the Niagara rescue has a different vibe in the script.....Lois is funny and headstrong and confident----the 'honeymoon' period with Lois and Clark's choices are untainted by any disillusionment or regret- UNTIL the depowering, where- in the script, she's crying at the size of the mistake she may have made (not filmed) after the depowering, followed not long after by the diner humiiiation.

I so wish that they had also done a 'mockup' with storyboards and voice actors for the scenes that Donner wasn't able to shoot & insert them in some sort of workprint- but at least the Mank script is available with SOME new Donner footage in the RDC to give hints of what we might have gotten....

And- I agree wholeheartedly that the Salkinds may be blamed for Donner's firing, but without the Salkinds, there would have been no SUperman movie (or at the very least, not by 1979 anyways--- who knows when if it would have EVER happened without the Salkinds!)- period.

[Knight]

The music was cued perfect for that interview with Stamp when he yells ''Jack!! You bastard!!'' haha, I love the Brando impressions Salkind and Stamp do,great stuff!!

Yea,there are some really cool anecdotes on that documentary from the cast.

Donner says he was fired,but also states ''if he is on it (Spengler) then I am not!'' On the SII commentary (correct me if I'm wrong) but I'm sure Salkind wanted Donner to finish II?

One of the coolest things I liked what Donner shot for II was Kal-El in the FOS flying to the crystal chamber in the shirt and black trousers.

I would also like a full in depth book on the schedule including a full screen play for both pictures too,that would be a treat.

On the Thau documentary for the 2001 release I love,just love the story Gene Hackman recalls about wanting to keep his mustache and how Donner duped him into shaving it off for the picture. Brilliant. ;D

[hursty]

Mar 17, 2012 2:03:03 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I don't think anyone can really take sides completely. Without the Salkind's determination and investment in the project it would never have existed, but without Donner & Mankiewicz the final product is likely to have been akin to SIII (we suspect this, given the direction Lester took it, but under another director who knows what we would have got).

In terms of SII, there are elements of both scripts / films that don't quite sit right to me. Obviously, the camp in Lester's SII is very unwelcome, but the blank-bullets scene just doesn't play as well as the pink-bear scene, particularly because in the former there's very little dénouement exploring their reactions to this revelation - it trivialises what should be a fairly seminal event in their relationship, as much or more so than the Interview and overly long 'Can You Read My Mind' sequence. The pink-bear scene allows their reactions to breathe and develop. We could speculate that the blank bullets scene would have been rewritten or expanded, but as far as I know, neither Dick nor Tom seemed unhappy with the scene as it was written.

The problem with the screen test scene is that it's only one sliver of the pieces of the relationship as Donner/Mank planned it out:

In the script, Lois isn't disappointed, it's pure comedy- even the Niagara rescue has a different vibe in the script.....Lois is funny and headstrong and confident----the 'honeymoon' period with Lois and Clark's choices are untainted by any disillusionment or regret- UNTIL the depowering, where- in the script, she's crying at the size of the mistake she may have made (not filmed) after the depowering, followed not long after by the diner humiiiation.

I so wish that they had also done a 'mockup' with storyboards and voice actors for the scenes that Donner wasn't able to shoot & insert them in some sort of workprint- but at least the Mank script is available with SOME new Donner footage in the RDC to give hints of what we might have gotten....

And- I agree wholeheartedly that the Salkinds may be blamed for Donner's firing, but without the Salkinds, there would have been no SUperman movie (or at the very least, not by 1979 anyways--- who knows when if it would have EVER happened without the Salkinds!)- period.

Ok, I appreciate the Salkinds financed the movie, but that doesn't give them the right to treat directors who made them money in that fashion. Donner's determination with the story is why Superman profited so heavily, The Salkinds had a bonafide franchise on their hands thanks to Donner, his sacking reeks of ingratitude. Donner doesn't need to be grateful to the Salkinds, he didn't ask to direct the movie, THEY asked HIM, then they fire him. I appeciate Donner didn't help matters with his bullish attitude towards Spengler, but these matters should have been worked out for the sake of the picture and the fans who adored them

The result was a disjointed sequel, with re-shoots, stand-ins and plot-holes.