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Post by Kamdan on Mar 28, 2012 2:05:16 GMT -5
I just read this over at CapedWonder.
"I'm pleasantly surprised that people continue to express an interest in the possibilities related to having another go at sprucing up SII - (or issuing some kind of restored Superman part I and II complete saga type release). I think that much will be dictated by simple economics - if the new Superman movie does well at the box office, then the "property" of Superman rises in perceived value. That will then be the time to really move with a fresh pitch.
I know that is a view shared by a lot of people: a wasted pitch too soon may fall on deaf ears - but strike while the proverbial iron is hot and there's no reason why WB wouldn't see the value of such a restoration/re-release project. I can only speculate what the current official feeling is, but I can speculate that it is something along the lines of: "Right now, we don't want to be looking back, but forward. Let's prove that a new flagship can stand on its own two feet and keep the franchise fresh and profitable. If that works, then that rising ship will undoubtedly lift other boats in the family."
Apologies for the less than perfect metaphor there, but hopefully this all makes sense. Put simply, if the next film is a hit, then WB will definitely be hearing from a number of us (in unison) who want to put this together.
Thanks to everyone,
Selutron"
It all seems like wishful thinking to me. "Don't call us, we'll call you." I'd rather just see him finish what he began and do it for the fans, like what Adywan is doing with the Star Wars films, who makes his fan edits because he wants to see it done and is willing to share. Warners has stated in the past that they're already happy with what they did for the Superman films when the Ultimate Collector's Edition of the films came out in 2007, which was why there wasn't any new additional content to the Blu-ray editions, even though there is plenty we can attest to that is missing. If Selutron wants to simply wait until that material is available, that's fine with me, but when The Man of Steel comes around, they'll just rerelease the box sets and call it a day.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 28, 2012 2:23:38 GMT -5
I'm skeptical, too.... the main reason being how much- according to figures offered by John August on his podcast- dvd sales have been going WAY down over the last several years, apparently, all across the board, with the exception of the few megahits. I'd LIKE to think that WB will return to SII in some way that makes us all happy if MOS hits it big--- but--- I don't know.... It's hard for me to hold onto any hope of the IRC getting released on dvd, let alone a recut of ANY sort- let alone what Selutron has in mind. When money seemed 'decent' on dvds, recuts have already had limited budgets. Nowadays, uncertain that they'd bend over backwards to back it. I can only imagine that it'd have to be someone with a lot of clout at WB (Chris Nolan?) to get this pushed out--- but without that, hard to see it happening without Donner's support as well.... If nothing comes out alongside MOS's dvd release, I'm totally done with hope for anything new with SII. As it is, hope is on life support...just barely there.  |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Mar 28, 2012 7:39:51 GMT -5
It would have to be on blu-ray, not standard dvd. Which of course means more money. I'm a little more optimistic than you CAM. In his letters, Sel said that the people over at WB really really liked his ideas. It came down to money of course. So, it's really up to us, the movie-goers. If the film is a hit and makes hundreds of millions of dollars, I'm more than optimistic that WB will put the reigns into Sel's hands, and NOT Thau's. And I'm willing to bet that if you give Sel the same amount of money and time that Thau had, he'll turn out something that almost all of us can agree on.
Then again, it's Snyder at the helm, and I couldn't watch more than 30 seconds of "Sucker Punch" on cable the other night. Forget about acting and plot. The editing during the action scenes made me dizzy from all the quick cuts, zoom ins and shakey cam. I nitpick like crazy. there's one shot where the main character goes to pick up a gun off the ground, and the camera has to move so we see her pick up the gun, then see her face. WHY couldn't they just pull the camera back a few feet and keep the shot as-is? Also, do we NEED to see a close-up of a gun being loaded with a clip? All it does it make me think a stunt person is doing it instead of the actor.
Ugh. I hate modern action movies. I really hope Sly Stallone keeps his word this time and makes Expendables 2 the TRUE 80's action movie throwback that he said the first one would be. Especially in terms of editing and cinematography. The first film was simply a modern action movie with modern action stars following Stallone around. But I digress. Sorry for the rant.
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Post by Jimbo on Mar 28, 2012 12:27:26 GMT -5
It sounds similar to the Star Trek: TMP director's cut. The guys who made the DVD versions are ready and waiting for the go-ahead from Paramount to redo it for HD, but Paramount is not interested right now.
Perhaps when the next movie comes out, something could happen....doubtful though. Paramount also must know that the fanbase is small for a director's cut of TMP (no doubt bigger than the fanbase who wants another Superman 2)
As passionate as people are about things like this, once money is involved (specifically money going out to make something happen), you have to know marketing backwards and forwards. They will not cut a check unless they know it will sell.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 28, 2012 12:42:36 GMT -5
First: HOPE you're right about the possibilities, but....
Well, I'd be curioius if:
#1: It has Donner's approval at all... or if it's important to WB at all (which would be sad and a slap in the face, but then again, the RDC cutting was horrible) to get such approval, even if the money is there.
#2: How much the project would cost in blu--- if done Selutron's way, with composites from "The Swarm". Wouldn't they have to get approval from the producers of the "Swarm" as well as pay off actors who appear in it?
(Plus if in blu- wouldn't Selutron have to re-rotoscope things from scratch even if everything was available in HD?)
I would NOT want Thau involved in the creative decisions, based on how horribly the RDC turned out- but even if there ISN'T fresh rotoscoping/compositing.... a competent edit using the elements that already exist- using the IRC as a basis for the Donner stuff (DON"T trim out the additional dialogue shown in the IRC & restore the deleted arctic stuff), removing the colorful bouncing Jorel head, restoring the original 'speed' effect of the DP jump/editing, and putting back Thorne music where it originally was fine--- I'd be happy enough.
If they give Selutron a blank check to do as he pleases WITH access to the original footage, I think things will be fine enough. I'm not crazy about ALL his samples so far, but it'll be miles and miles ahead of the RDC.
But if NOT.... then...
At the very least, IRC in widescreen HD. (Yeah, I know I'm a broken recording on this, but I want WB to know...)
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cypher85
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Post by cypher85 on Mar 28, 2012 12:47:13 GMT -5
I think we are completely done getting any new material from the Donner movies released.
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Metallo
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The worlds finest heroes
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Post by Metallo on Mar 28, 2012 13:08:44 GMT -5
I can see some new deleted scenes or something being included on a new release but as far as a whole new cut of Superman II...? The chances are looking pretty damn slim. MOS's release would give the best shot of it happening but even with that it still feels unlikely to me.
I think this is one of those things the fans are REALLY goign to have too fight hard for if they wanted it but the economics of it all just don't add up.
Its a little frustrating because I know there's a better version of Superman II somewhere between the Lester and Donner cut. Sure we could do recuts ourselves but its not the same as a cut with all the bells and whistles with a lot of resources behind it.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 28, 2012 13:35:52 GMT -5
Agreed..... before, it was the Brando estate stuff clogging the way. Now, with the rights cleared (thanks to SR as well)- the question of money comes up.
Universal was able to do "Dune"'s tv version in widescreen DVD without (apparently) too much in terms of cost. That's why I wonder if the same treatment for the tv version in widescreen DVD also has some backdoor discount that other treatments wouldn't allow, for whatever reason.
If only for a reel of extended takes, I'd do anything for new Donner SII stuff. It's frustrating knowing that the footage is THERE but not released to the general public.
*sigh*
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verisimilitude
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Superman II: The Verisimilitude Cut...You'll Still Believe
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Post by verisimilitude on Mar 30, 2012 13:31:50 GMT -5
Speaking as one of the "fan cutters" out there, I have to admit that the frustration I feel about the incompleteness of S2, has been mitigated quite a bit by jumping in and applying many of the fixes, myself. I encourage fans everywhere to consider giving it a shot. It's fun and really does make you feel better about viewing S2.
As for the footage that still remains unavailable, I can't imagine how difficult it would be for WB to just throw together a "deleted scenes" reel. As long as it's HD, 2.35, and 5.1, it doesn't have to be specially edited with perfect music or anything. Just get us the footage. As simple as that probably would be to do, do I think it will ever happen. NO WAY.
Truth be told, the stuff that the majority of Supes fans would agree that they still want to see, probably wouldn't be too demanding to produce, when it comes to S2. For me, give me the full FOS Supes/Lex conversation, the full Supes/Lois FOS and Balcony goodbye, and the RIC version of the balloon conversation, and I'm good. If they would like to restore all the RDC deleted scenes to HD for us as well, that would be...Super. Again, probably will never happen.
When it comes to Selutron, I'm sort of with CAM. I truly admire his skills, and have thoroughly enjoyed many of the things he did to give more class to S2, and more scope and depth to much of the RDC stuff. But honestly, if WB doesn't want to give him the resources or pay him to re-edit S2, but WOULD be willing to just a release a "deleted scenes" reel on Blu-Ray, I would be thrilled. Furthermore, I believe that, between the collective resources of Booshman, Jimbo, Maverick, Tyler, myself and others, a truly satisfying S2 could then be put together, that fans could really embrace.
For whatever reason, it seems that Selutron is hesitant to put together a full movie version of his vision for S2, so I'm not sure if that's ever going to happen, either.
So, just out of curiosity, I want to know, if heck froze over and WB was willing to release more missing scenes, what is the BARE MINIMUM that you would demand be included, in order to feel satisfied?
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matt
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Post by matt on Mar 30, 2012 13:42:32 GMT -5
To bad he wouldn't just do a regular fan edit. I don't know why he thinks WB would fund his cut?
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cypher85
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Post by cypher85 on Mar 30, 2012 13:47:32 GMT -5
I agree, just do it like a normal fan. What raises you above everyone else. Plus do you really think WB would ever actually authorize a "Fan" to officially recut their film. Never Ever Ever going to happen. Sounds like a fan seeking his own fortune and glory. If that isn't true then why not just do it like ever other fan cutter.
And I don't think we are ever going to get another smidge of officially released Donnerverse material. I would love it, but I can't see WB putting in any more resources into it. IMO RTK was the last bit we will ever see.
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Post by Jimbo on Mar 30, 2012 14:10:08 GMT -5
And I don't think we are ever going to get another smidge of officially released Donnerverse material. I would love it, but I can't see WB putting in any more resources into it. IMO RTK was the last bit we will ever see. Yup. I'm surprised they put as much effort as they did in the Blu-ray set - remastered STM theatrical/2/3/4, lossless 1978 mix, and RTK in HD. They brought just about everything up to modern A/V standards and provided the most-sought bonus features, so they would never have to go back to it again. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 30, 2012 14:33:38 GMT -5
If Selutron was a good friend or someone that actually worked with Donner, (like Thau apparently was), then I could see it as more likely happening.
I don't mind WHAT the motivation is of the guy--- he can have whatever fortune or glory he wants, as far as I'm concerned- but if he (or anyone) can be able to go back to the real footage and restore SII properly (the IRC probably came the closest imo, although it had the misfortune of being pan and scan and only on tv).... I'm all for it.
Even if nothing 'new' is added, restoring the missing bits from the zealous overcutting, removing the bad additions (DO NOT rehire that cheapo fx group--- use the original 70's fx that were there in the first place), and fixing the badly re-used music would probably please a LOT of fans right there.
Barring that--
Either:
#1: A HD quality disc of all the deleted scenes/extended footage without bad music in the background
and/or
#2: IRC recut so it's widescreen and dvd quality.
Would either one REALLY cost WB that much?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 30, 2012 14:37:33 GMT -5
True, Jimbo...
But I just wish the RDC they gave wasn't SO badly done.
It just had to be the IRC + newly found and well-edited Donner footage restored to it.
Donner's suggestion to get takes 'faster faster faster' might not have been the way to go (particularly with Clark's return to the FOS, where he runs in, then rambles rather fast with his speech about regret--- a slower take - like the theatrical had--- feels like it would have been far better). too....
Can anyone in the right place at the right time at WB give us an official better recut by the time MOS comes out? *sigh*
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cypher85
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Post by cypher85 on Mar 30, 2012 14:38:28 GMT -5
Probably not, it would only be chump change for them I'm sure. But it isn't going to happen. They are done revisiting that well.
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Post by Jimbo on Mar 30, 2012 14:40:10 GMT -5
RDC happened not only because of the fan clamor (which no longer exists this time around), but also because SR borrowed so heavily on the Donnerverse. MOS is now its own thing, and the Donnerverse is toast.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 30, 2012 14:46:00 GMT -5
Good points.
The questionable revenue of dvds now & the ambiguous costs that we're unsure about ourselves probably don't help. (Mel Gibson's "Payback" re-edit wasn't blocked by anyone, but there was next to zip available for a fresh score)
On the other hand--- Oliver Stone got multiple recuts of "Alexander" (probably far more than we'll ever need)....and I know THAT wasn't a big blockbuster.... but in that case, Stone got a chance to shoot everything, whereas Donner didn't.
Because of that, maybe Donner may be considering it a lost cause at this stage and feel done with it.... so not having the director onboard charging for it, either, probably doesn't help the cause.....
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matt
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Post by matt on Mar 30, 2012 15:19:56 GMT -5
I wonder if the reason Selutron abandoned making his cut himself is for time and using is own money? It has been like five six years since he started making clips. If he kept up it would have been done by now. As for the blu rays I/m just glad for the wire removal. Can the STM - IV blu ray picture quality look better then what is out now?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 30, 2012 16:22:42 GMT -5
I can't imagine it costing any money, but time to rotoscope and sound edit. If he gets the ok to do it again in HD, I may be wrong, but I think he'd have to do each of his rotoscopes all over again, unless there's an easy trick to adapting the masks to fit footage that has a far larger dpi.  |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Mar 30, 2012 17:35:41 GMT -5
It took me a long time, but I finally understand why Sel is hesitant to simply release his vision as a fan cut, and why he wants something official. So that years from now casual movie-goers won't have to choose between the 2 versions OFFICIALLY released, and be disappointed either way.
What we do is noble, but in the end fruitless. Decades from now no one will know what we've achieved by fixing this film, or any fan edit of any film for that matter. The only thing that counts is an official release. THAT'S why Sel started his crusade.
Unfortunately the only way anything would ever happen in the future (cost issues aside) would be if Donner was brought aboard yet again. There is no way WB would let anyone else oversee the final cut of this new release. And since Lester is MIA, Donner is the only one who could OK it. And even though he was more than happy from the response the first time around, I seriously doubt he'd be willing to take another crack at it. It would be considered insulting. I'm actually not sure who the film *technically* belongs to. Maybe I'm wrong on this though. Is it possible that WB could re-do this film without Donner's permission?
Either way, this is why I don't really have much enthusiasm towards fan editing S2 anymore. In a way it's the same as doing a cover of your favorite song but with your own little changes that you feel "improve" the song. You can use this euphemism towards any facet of art, be it painting, sculpting or whatever. In the end the "official" version that's made for public consumption is all that counts.
That being said, I still cling onto the positive feedback Sel said the people at WB gave him. However, considering the upgrades they did with the recent blu-rays, if there was ever a time for S2 to have another go, that was it. And as for releasing the RIC in HD even as just deleted scenes, again, this doesn't help things in the long run. Sure it helps us fan editors, but in the end it needs to be official.
Sorry for the negative post, just voicing my thoughts. I'm still here to help out you guys with ideas and comments. I'm glad my contributions over the years have been generally well received by most of you (Thank you Veris for adding me to that list. I think it would be a dream come true for all of us if we all were brought into WB's studio and given free reign to do this film right). I look forward to what Boosh, Veris, and Jim have to offer. But 6 years of over-analyzing this film, as well as 3 years of editing has left me burnt out. At this point, after the 3 of you have released your cuts, I'm picking the one I like the most and being done with it. Even if it isn't exactly 100% with my vision, I know it'll be leaps and bounds better than the 2 versions that are sold in stores.
And on that note, seeing as how I showed Boosh a bunch of my ideas (as well as other ideas that were shown to me), I implore Veris and Jim to take a crack at those ideas themselves if they want to. Those ideas are:
1. The new re-powering ending (the vimeo.com video with Supes flying out of the fortress, across the arctic, and over the water making the big splash waves). Veris, I know you'd love it if you haven't seen it already.
2. The new rotoscoping ideas that were sent to me from someone else that had all the flying miniature shots replaced with actual Reeve flying shots. As well as putting Brando into the shots of Clark "twitching" when he is repowered AND having him fade into Clark, as opposed to fading away to the right of the frame. there were some other ideas he had but these 2 were the most notable to me. His idea of the cellophane S as a new phantom zone to trap the villains in was original, I'll give him that. The idea of using the Zod RIC line "KILL HIIIIIM!!" before Ursa and Non throw the bus so that it makes more sense for the onlookers to think Supes is dead was creative as well.
3. Any ideas I introduced in any of my cuts. I have confidence in you guys that you can do it better than me now. Dialogue trimming/moving, alternate/added music cues, new ending with Lois knowing his secret,etc... One good thing about the blu-rays is that since the picture quality was fixed for the sequels, none of you will have to go through the painstaking process of muting the Donner footage and synching it with the theatrical audio like I did lol. TBH I always preferred the theatrical color scheme more than the DC, but on DVD the DC footage looked better so I had to compromise. At least in the theatrical the FOS is its proper white color, right?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 30, 2012 19:12:37 GMT -5
I don't know enough about the biz to know if WB does or doesn't have the authority. If not Donner, then if Stuart Baird on a mission to restore it, possibly Donner would be ok with it.....but without the ok--- it would seem REALLY odd how/why WB would move forward with it. Previously, we know that Ilya Salkind was planning to have himself and Donner supervise a re-edit (I have this horrible feeling we lost out on what might have been the best official edit) years ago--- but you're right..... who knows who really owns it, and who cares enough to be in the right position to be able to get it done right. Hopefully, it won't be decades for this thing to be fixed right. I'm HOPING they keep the originals stored in some cryogenic freeze or something that it can be resurrected in the future by some director with enough clout at WB who can charm Donner and WB into saying 'yes' to a proper restoration/edit full out. Is it vain hope? I think it's not impossible, given how many OOOOLD films with questionable audiences get restored, but it's going to have to be a lot of factors all in the right alignment. Sadly, the RDC had almost all the stars in the right alignment, except for the final editing. OWWW..... |
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Post by booshman on Mar 31, 2012 0:28:54 GMT -5
It took me a long time, but I finally understand why Sel is hesitant to simply release his vision as a fan cut, and why he wants something official. So that years from now casual movie-goers won't have to choose between the 2 versions OFFICIALLY released, and be disappointed either way. What we do is noble, but in the end fruitless. Decades from now no one will know what we've achieved by fixing this film, or any fan edit of any film for that matter. The only thing that counts is an official release. THAT'S why Sel started his crusade. Got to really disagree here. Whether or not a version is released officially isn't important. If a fanedit is better, then that's the version I'll go to time and again. Casual movie goers can stick with what's available on Amazon if that's enough for them, but fans with an interest will dig further and find a version to suit them. This goes for any fanedited movie, (Imagine Adywan holding out for Lucas to release his edits officially). I don't think that the mass audience really gives a fuck about Superman II in any form. Many folk I have spoken to are unaware of the Donner Cut, and haven't seen the theatrical in years. So in holding out for an official release, I think Sel is ultimately only depriving the people who really want to see his cut. If WB said they wanted to release my edit, ultimately who would care, other than the people who already know about fanedits and have it available to them for free. I also wouldn't say that what faneditors do is fruitless at all. Sure it doesn't pay the bills, and we're not going to receive worldwide acclaim, but fruitless it is not. Personally, I've been editing Superman II on and off for 7 years. Even before the Donner Cut was announced I was dicking about trying to make the Lester version more to my liking. I've since then gained a greater technical knowledge, met some really cool and interesting people, and had one of my edits screened publicly. I don't think that all the time and effort I've put in needs validation by a WB release. I've created stuff primarily for my own sake, which also happens to be of interest to some other like minded people. I think Sel should just take the bluray releases and create his version from what's out there already. I won't set the world on fire, but the people who care will have finally get to see his vision. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 31, 2012 1:21:49 GMT -5
The only real reason I hope Selutron (or someone who has great edit skills) can have a real official release is the small hope that he/she gets a chance to go into the vaults to get the better takes/missing takes of many of the Donner sequences. If not that....again, HD deleted scenes or IRC widescreen HD... As an aside... has anyone heard what Thau's reaction has been or has he disappeared off the face of the earth since the RDC? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 1:53:19 GMT -5
Word from Selutron!
The Dagamites are forming an army and plan to attack Gilbor! What shall we do? The Dagamites are ruthless! We have no chance!
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Keith
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Post by Keith on Mar 31, 2012 6:52:37 GMT -5
LOL!
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