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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 11, 2012 11:34:20 GMT -5
I don't know if this has REALLY been put on the table anywhere, but thought to put it out there. Yes, of course I know we haven't even been able to see the TRAILER yet--- but this is just for speculation, as most have probably seen the Avengers by now & we have inklings of what to expect from MOS at this point.
Personally, I think/hope that we get some beautiful images from Snyder's MOS- that he doesn't go too much for 'gritty' at the sake of destroying his cinematic eye.
But- on the Avengers' side:
The costumes feel true, the characters feel true to the comics I grew up with (or at least enough for me), the cool fanboy moments we dreamed of are there, a TON of fanboy dream moments we've never seen before on film, it's funny, it LOOKS expensive (And I think it's the same budget as MOS, no?).... and the benefit, of course, is the movie linking up pretty smoothly off of a handful of Marvel solo films.
In MOS corner:
Yes, there's a lot of unknowns, but personally miss the trunks, (although to be fair maybe it'll still work on in the final film),not overly thrilled with the casting, and it'll be a solo film versus a group film, and it's a reboot.
Doesn't mean that solo superhero films are doomed right off the bat to be an inferior film, but one of the special things about STM was that it was the first time we'd see Krypton & the origin story ever on the bigscreen with a big budget.... and MOS could sorta be a remake, NOT the first time ever we'd see Supes onscreen, whereas we never saw the Avengers onscreen together in a live action feature- and the other advantage is, of course- 'hey, more superheroes onscreen!' geek factor.)
Again, will see, but I'd be suprised if this hasn't entered WB's minds as far as trying to top audience's expectations as well.....
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Post by Jimbo on May 11, 2012 11:44:28 GMT -5
The poll options are loaded.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 11, 2012 11:52:15 GMT -5
Well, I just thought to open it up for discussion.... it's been talked about a little bit.... and I would agree if someone said that it's really early to make any firm judgements without seeing the trailer, let alone the film... but with the movie a year away, fun to speculate....
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Post by Jimbo on May 11, 2012 11:58:00 GMT -5
I will choose "MOS can't compete, I'm not sold on Snyder, and WB/DC needs to prove it's not just a one-man show"
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 11, 2012 12:21:33 GMT -5
I'm with with Jimbo. Snyder hasn't knocked it out of the part since 300. Everything in between has ranged from so so to ridiculous.
Avengers had everything you could want. It wasn't perfect but it was still a great balance of style, substance, action, humor, character, etc. From the first images it FELT truer to The Avengers than MOS does to Superman. Marvel built a track record before Avengers that people could put some trust in that WB simply hasn't with MOS. We don't even know how much involvement Nolan has at this point.
Even if MOS is great it just doesn't have enough going for it to match Avengers for me. We've seen Superman movies before. Avengers is a first of sorts. Separate heroes from separate movies coming together for one mega blockbuster? Its never been done before. And Whedon nailed it.
I just can't see MOS pulling anything NEW out of the hat that I've never seen before. I'm sure it will have great action but seeing Cap, Iron Man, Thor, and Hulk fighting side by side in a battle of that scale was awe inspiring.
At this stage the only way WB could do that for me is with a JLA movie. Nothing else would come close.
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Post by Jimbo on May 11, 2012 14:45:50 GMT -5
The Avengers was so huge because it had a ton of goodwill going into it.
MOS has....I dunno. The closest thing to goodwill that it has is that Chris Nolan might have glanced over the script at one point.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 11, 2012 15:24:51 GMT -5
A script from (one of) the writer(s) of The Dark Knight and Ghost Rider Spirit of Vengeance. Thats a crapshoot if I've ever seen one.
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Post by upandaway on May 11, 2012 17:01:41 GMT -5
I would be surprised if MOS did more than SR box office. If people go because its hanging on the new Batman film then it could do well but I don't think so. I think MOS will bomb. Its just a feeling. Supes isn't cool at the moment.
If warners could advertise through Big Bang Theory then it may get some thing off of that.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2012 17:08:33 GMT -5
I'm dying to see the teaser in front of Dark Knight Rises, which it had BETTER be in front of...and from there, we'll probably get a good sense of what we're in for.
My instincts say there's no way in heck MOS will be anywhere near as good as Avengers is. Not even a tenth as good. But we'll see. Hopefully it'll blow me away, maybe this attitude of mine will help me in the long run, because I'm not hating the movie already, I'm just ready to once it's out. I am also, however, ready to love it. I'd MUCH rather love it, trust me, I WANT it to be BETTER than The Avengers, but that's absolutely impossible given Goyer and Snyder.
MOS has our love of the character(s) and some fine actors going for it.
Avengers has our love of the characters from previous movies the worst of which is still really damn good played by fine actors or replaced by fine actors over the past four years, done by a skilled craftsman when it comes to comics and dialogue and fun with love and respect for the content and for the audience with the help of a now seemingly supportive studio, without pressure put forth by previous incarnations or doomed projects.
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Post by Jimbo on May 11, 2012 17:32:46 GMT -5
I will be completely shocked and pleasantly surprised if it's as good as SR.
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Post by Valentine Smith on May 11, 2012 18:02:18 GMT -5
Yeah...I don't even care anymore. Talk to me after we see the trailer before DKR.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2012 1:30:53 GMT -5
Two completely different beasts. Might as well compare The A-Team to The Bourne Ultimatum.
I'll be interested to see how they sell this in the trailer. Will they blow up the Nolan connection and fill it with "BWUUUUUUUUUUUH" sounds, or will they try to sell it as something lighter? Should be interesting. You only get one chance to make a first impression. Case in point, the lukewarm response to the first Green Lantern trailer- and the subsequent "Oops, we botched the first trailer, here's some with a completely different tone" ones.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 12, 2012 2:35:12 GMT -5
Well said, Jimbo.
The thing with Avengers was: It was Joss Whedon's dream job & his love of the comics shone through, but he had the talent to do a great job on an almost impossible assignment.
The thing with MOS is: Nobody seemed to be wholehearted about this thing from the start. There's plenty of cynicism that this project is a career move for some of the key behind the scenes folks, rather than a project driven by someone who was determined to make THIS film, regardless of any obstacles.
With SR, Singer gave up X3 to make this happen and apparently took some career hits to make SR happen. Can't say he wasn't passionate about it, regardless of one's reaction to the results.
With Watchmen, that project was dead in the water, and studios didn't seem to be falling all over themselves to pick it up necessarily. Snyder gets credit for truly loving the comics, but how he executed it was disappointing for more than a few.
The only name trusted on MOS might not really even be part of the creative team, so it's hard to feel a lot of strong optimism for it.
If Nolan were the director, I'd say the odds were 50-50 that it would be. With Snyder..... I just have too many doubts.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 12, 2012 2:38:41 GMT -5
Yeah, me too, Kev. I'm not in hate with the movie this early on.... but much of my reaction is colored by the fact that the price of MOS was sacrificing SR 2. I don't want to have come this far, and have the movie only be 'eh', after all the heartaches associated to plug being pulled on SR 2....
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Post by ye5man on May 12, 2012 4:35:53 GMT -5
SR2 should have come out 2008-9 so I don't think this is a fair statement. SR2 looks like it was never going to happen independent of this film.
I think it'll be unlikely MOS will receive as much acclaim but who knows how it will pan out?
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Post by EvilSupes on May 12, 2012 6:34:47 GMT -5
I don't feel so good about MoS anymore at all. The Avengers has set such a damn high standard for everything superhero related, I just don't know how any superhero movie can top it. It will need to have the perfect elements like STM to pull it off (which The Avengers has) and I just don't know how to believe that can happen after The Avengers being so good and raising the bar.
WB needed to look bigger than anything they've ever done to make Superman great again and I just don't know if that's possible with Snyder. Unless the script is REALLY, REALLY GOOD and the actors themselves pull out something great, I just don't know...
Ugh, feel uneasy about the thought of the whole thing being a depressing disaster. Never hit me until after seeing The Avengers! Damn you Avengers!!
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Post by Valentine Smith on May 12, 2012 8:08:11 GMT -5
We are not getting MoS "instead of" SR2. SR2 was a dead issue by 2007.
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Post by Metallo on May 12, 2012 9:32:59 GMT -5
If they don't start building some momentum for MOS right now thats not even going to matter. WB was smart to make MOS for $ 175 mil (if thats even the real budget) but for me personally MOS would have to be the greatest superhero film ever made to even come close to topping Avengers (in terms of box office and my personal excitement) and if anyone believes thats going to happen I have some bridges to sell them.
Maybe they should have put Snyder on Green Lantern and Campbell on Superman. For so many reasons those pairings make more sense to me. Campbell has shown THREE TIMES that he can take an influential but flailing, perceived as outdated hero and make him exciting and relevant again. Snyder's forte is visual spectacle...which Green Lantern should be. It should wow the senses like no other.
Meanwhile Marvel studios has shown they can hire talented filmmakers that are a good fit a specific character. Johnston's action/fx background and work on the Rocketeer was a strong indicator that he was the guy for Captain America. Branaghs Shakespearean experience and love of the classics was a sign that he could take something as flamboyant and myth heavy as Thor and bring it to modern day audiences. Whedons genre credits and wrangling of large ensembles looked nice on his CV when he was up for The Avengers.
Meanwhile WB is putting some untried french director, thats never worked with this kind of material or doesn't understand the thoroughly American artform of superhero comic books, on Catwoman. It was Alien Resurrection all over again only ten times worse. Pitof should have been worried about getting the job on the Barbarella remake not a DC comics movie.
Even Raimis kinetic style and experience on Darkman made him a solid pick for Spider-man and Singers work on films about large ensembles and outsiders made him a good pick for X-men. Less of a good pick for Superman. But WB hires him anyway because they don't understand any of that only that he made Fox money.
Meanwhile Snyderman is spending his spare time talking about films with RAPE zombies. An idea so stupid the studio balked at it. When does an American films studio EVER do that with a sequel thats got a good shot at making money? Turn down money? Hollywood? It doesn't inspire confidence.
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Post by EvilSupes on May 12, 2012 10:04:33 GMT -5
If they don't start building some momentum for MOS right now thats not even going to matter. WB was smart to make MOS for $ 175 mil (if thats even the real budget) but for me personally MOS would have to be the greatest superhero film ever made to even come close to topping Avengers (in terms of box office and my personal excitement) and if anyone believes thats going to happen I have some bridges to sell them. Maybe they should have put Snyder on Green Lantern and Campbell on Superman. For so many reasons those pairings make more sense to me. Campbell has shown THREE TIMES that he can take an influential but flailing, perceived as outdated hero and make him exciting and relevant again. Snyder's forte is visual spectacle...which Green Lantern should be. It should wow the senses like no other. Meanwhile Marvel studios has shown they can hire talented filmmakers that are a good fit a specific character. Johnston's action/fx background and work on the Rocketeer was a strong indicator that he was the guy for Captain America. Branaghs Shakespearean experience and love of the classics was a sign that he could take something as flamboyant and myth heavy as Thor and bring it to modern day audiences. Whedons genre credits and wrangling of large ensembles looked nice on his CV when he was up for The Avengers. Meanwhile WB is putting some untried french director, thats never worked with this kind of material or doesn't understand the thoroughly American artform of superhero comic books, on Catwoman. It was Alien Resurrection all over again only ten times worse. Pitof should have been worried about getting the job on the Barbarella remake not a DC comics movie. Even Raimis kinetic style and experience on Darkman made him a solid pick for Spider-man and Singers work on films about large ensembles and outsiders made him a good pick for X-men. Less of a good pick for Superman. But WB hires him anyway because they don't understand any of that only that he made Fox money. Meanwhile Snyderman is spending his spare time talking about films with RAPE zombies. An idea so stupid the studio balked at it. When does an American films studio EVER do that with a sequel thats got a good shot at making money? Turn down money? Hollywood? It doesn't inspire confidence. Sigh. I agree with every word. WB just don't 'get' it. Hopefully we can be proven wrong though. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 12, 2012 11:05:48 GMT -5
It's an interesting thought--- Snyder does have a great cinematic eye- (contentwise not so much) but Campbell's been a competent storyteller- when he has a good story. I totally agree that the disaster of Green Lantern started to happen when they tried to make it a type of "Iron Man" movie, (Geoff Johns characterization of GL I totally felt was wrong, despite writing otherwise great comics... but then again I grew up with the Neal Adams' Green Lantern/Green Arrow comics that had GL as the straight man and GA as the rebel). Campbell's abiity to choose a good story- or fix it up.... not always present, from what I've seen. On another note, I think the whole rather depressing thing to me is: STM- was a major movie event, particularly a groundbreaking superhero film event. Avengers- was a major movie event, particularly a groundbreaking superhero film event. MOS- seems to be set to be another superhero film among many. Good or bad, unless there's something particularly fantastic about it, hard to see it breaking new ground. ((SR is/was... well.... What's odd/sad is that regardless of how one felt about SR... it wasn't made into the big event it should have been.. it had SOME press with the return of Superman on the bigscreen, but the marketing just dropped the ball completely and it never got a chance to feel like the event it should have been. Part of it has been the influx of other good superhero films, (which by no means is a bad thing at all), but that should have been even more reason for the marketing machine to ramp it up.)) What could make a new Superman film be an event again? Joss Whedon prepping the Justice League movie. I love how an interviewer asked Whedon how/why the Justice League movie couldn't get it together, when the Avengers could- and Whedon basically said that WB should "call me". (And I have no doubt he would not mind making a new JLA film) If Avengers hits the gabillion mark (and I hope it does), then hopefully WB gets on the phone quick and calls up Whedon, gets out his way, and lets him have the keys to the WB kingdom to make "Justice League". Personally, as much as I wouldn't have changed the first two Nolan Batman films for the world (well, except for casting Katie Holmes.... probably the biggest mistake)- I would MUCH prefer Joss Whedon as the 'spiritual guide' to making the superhero film adaptations for DC, than Nolan. Nolan stated early that he wasn't that much of a comic book fan, and doesn't/didn't seem that enthused about bringing every comic book property to the bigscreen, whereas I would imagine Joss is enough of a comic book geek that Joss might not mind (after all, he was heavily involved for years for rebooting Wonder Woman, but WB wouldnt' let him move forward with doing it... who knows now?). Anyhow..... it was thought having Geoff Johns on a position of helping setup the DC characters for the bigscreen was the right move, but from what we can see, not really at all.... Johns was coy about the big plans for all the DC heroes--- that MIGHT have happened.... but after the Green Lantern debacle- I wouldn't be suprised AT ALL if it's back to square one of WB's strategy of: "Stall the investors on making new superhero films, make it look like we're developing things, but have no real progress & keep collecting checks". Oh well.... At least Disney (so far) hasn't done anything yet to mess up Marvel's working machine on their films. I wonder... is ANYONE at WB's top offices even remotely embarrassed by Marvel's continuing (and growing) successes, given that they own just as many superhero properties???  |
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Post by EvilSupes on May 12, 2012 11:19:49 GMT -5
CAM, don't add more to the depression and realisation that the new MOS is going to flat out disappoint us after The Avengers.  ;D I should have listened to you from the start, as you said it was just building up to a disappointment, and that it would take the perfect elements to come together to make another great Superman movie. The more I look at that, aside from great casting, it's lacking a few of those. Unless the script is sensational and the cast really bring in a good effort, it's just gonna be another comic book movie with all visual spectacle and no substance. I don't know what's more depressing realising now that MOS probably won't be as good as The Avengers or finding out that it really isn't when it comes out.  Worst of all, if WB are expecting an Avenger's type grossing at the box office and critical acclaim, then that's it, we probably won't see another Superman movie for 10 years or more. |
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Post by Metallo on May 12, 2012 11:33:51 GMT -5
The WB execs would probably throw their own mothers under a bus to get Whedon back working on Wonder Woman (or anything else) right now. They are looking like real dumbasses now for not letting him make that movie. heck they should have gotten him to create that recent WW tv pilot not David E Kelly.
I don't know if WB should hire Whedon to develop JLA for them (that way of thinking has had mixed results for them) but they should hire someone like Whedon or look at why Whedon worked so well on Avengers.
I don't think WB cares enough about DC to be embarrassed by Marvels success since DC is just a cog in the big multimedia conglomerate that is Time Warner. What IS bothering them is they are probably annoyed that they are missing out on all the MONEY that Marvel and their partner studios have been raking in these last few years.
Disney has been smart enough to leave Marvel alone to do their thing. They just let the money roll in. At some point you'd think WB would figure that out. Let DC make their movies and give WB a cut because so far WB's way of doing things now ain't working.
Are they going to beg Nolan to write/produce the Green Lantern reboot (LOL) too?
I agree that MOS is really looking like just another movie in this day in age when the blockbuster standard has been raised and raised. Amazing Spider-man is suffering some similar problems right now but not nearly as severe because The Spider-man films have a track record to speak of. Even the bad one made a crapload of money. There hasn't been a truly GREAT hugely financially successful Superman film in over 3O years and WB had very little to do with that one.
AS for Green Lantern--JL: New Frontier is still the best Green Lantern movie ever made. Thats how you make Hal Jordan interesting and make him relatable as a more 3D person. In that story he had flaws and issues to overcome and you felt for him. He wasn't an Iron Man clone like he was in the Campbell movie. Reynolds Hal Jordan was a character who looked foolish feeling sorry for himself. I couldn't give a sh** about him.
Pretty soon we might be in a world where a larger portion of the general public (especially kids) might be more familiar with the details on Nick Fury, Black Widow, and Hawkeye (C list Marvel heroes in the past) than they are with Wonder Woman, The Flash, and Aquaman (DC's A list heroes in the past). If it weren't for the DC cartoons I'd definitely think that would be a strong possibility. And most adults don't even bother to watch cartoons.
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Post by Jimbo on May 12, 2012 12:26:41 GMT -5
One thing has struck me as weird. From the point that Singer was kinda-sorta working on the sequel through the questions of the movie happening at all to confirmation that Snyder was doing a reboot, one thing was always a certainty:
The movie was called Man of Steel.
Why is that? Because the last Batman movie was called The Dark Knight, his most common nickname? Kind of a silly reason. "Hey, it worked with the other fella, so let's try it again." As if it's good luck to not use the character name in the title or something.
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Post by Metallo on May 12, 2012 12:38:10 GMT -5
Probably. Hollywood isn't exactly known for bucking trends when something is successful. Its them trying to be clever, trendy, and creative with a name that's Superman related but "fresh" and different from *just* plain old "Superman: whatever."  It reminds me of Smallville. Superman's not in that title either but its Superman related. Now CW is trying to be trendy with the Green Arrow tv show by calling it just "Arrow." I think we are going to be seeing a lot more of this kind of stuff with more well known characters that have been around the tv/film block a few times. Also when Punisher: Warzone and The Incredible Hulk changed from sequels to quasi reboots they kept the same titles. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 12, 2012 13:49:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I heard.... we should consider ourselves lucky that WB hasn't forced DC to take off the word 'super' off of 'Superman'....to be 'hipper'- yet. Oh, wait.... "Man of Steel".... *sigh* ("Look up in the air! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's....MAN!")
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;D
