atp
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Post by atp on Jul 15, 2012 15:19:43 GMT -5
In the Reeve Superman films, it was clear that being Superman was pretty fucking incredible. heck, if I could fly and was invulnerable, I'd be pretty damn happy about it. But now, every superhero movie seems to go on about how "hard" and "sad" it is being a superhero. WTF?  ? It's always the same old crap: - "It's so hard being who I am." - "It's so sad and lonely keeping secrets." - "The world will reject me. The world doesn't want me. The world isn't ready. Wah wah wah" - "I'm so different. No-one understands. I'm not human. Wah wah wah." When did this crap start? Was it with X-Men, and the whole idea of people rejecting mutants? This melancholy bullshit was present in the Raimi Spiderman movies, and is definitely one of the things that ruined Superman Returns. When is this retarded nonsense going to end? When is it going to be fashionable to be happy about having super powers? |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jul 15, 2012 15:23:13 GMT -5
Not a sign of it in Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, The Avengers, etc...
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Jul 15, 2012 15:42:07 GMT -5
I think popular film "tones" represent the times and the general feelings in the air from people. Look at 70's cinema. Very dark and bleak (for the most part). Star Wars and Superman however, in the late 70's began to change people's ideas. they made movies fun again, and Hollywood began to follow suite. Films like these paved the way for the 80's when things were better, and films represented that. Compare Rocky 1 to Rocky 4, or even Rocky 1 to Rocky 2. Rocky 2 still has the same feel as the first film, but you can tell we're slowly starting to go into "feel good" Rocky 4 mode. Look at the highest grossing and most popular films of the 80s: Top Gun, Back to the Future, Rocky 4, etc...
Right now people are much more cynical and want a more realistic tone to comic book films. The internet also has a lot to do with it. Kids today question and nitpick these comic films that are aimed at them much more than they did in the 80's and 90's. Couple that with the success of the Nolan Batman films, and it's very easy to see why almost all the other comic book films (including the upcoming Superman film) are made in the same fashion.
However, I think we can all agree that this type of tone DOES NOT work for all comic characters. the new Batman films are successful because Batman in the quintessential (and most popular) character to portray this. THIS is why, regardless of box office numbers, the new Spider-Man film is not exactly cracking records, and why "The Avengers" is one of the highest grossing films ever. Whedon was smart to not even consider any of the serious tone, and made a FUN comic book movie. Sony saw how much profit Spider-Man gave them during Rami's run, and didn't put nearly as much thought into how the film should be made. They forgot that the Spider-Man films being FUN was what made them successful in the first place. I won't go into part 3, since that's when they decided to go "darker", and we all know that turned out, lol.
I fear that the new Superman film will suffer worse than "Returns" for this very reason. Superman, unlike Batman, is the quintessential FUN character, as you've pointed out. His films should be the ANTI-Batman. But Hollywood is dumb, doesn't understand or care about making comic films right, and both them and us suffer because of it. They're only concerned with making money and merchandise. The first Burton Batman film is the perfect example of that (even though I still love that movie).
This is the first and only time you will see me talk about the new Superman film on this board, as I have absolutely no hope for it, and think it will bomb terribly, here in the states anyway. As "Battleship" has proven, the new Hollywood mindset is to show the movies overseas first and make their money there (cuz they know they will since international audiences eat up our blockbusters regardless). However, here in the states I have a feeling the film will be lucky if it makes 200 million. "Returns" is still fresh in people's minds (as is Spidey 3). And there's only so much of a threshold that audiences can take.
Then again, isn't this new Superman film being made for the same reason Amazing Spider-Man was done? Like, they're concerned with making as much money as possible before whoever owns the rights to the character loses them?
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 15, 2012 15:50:35 GMT -5
Now that i come to think of it this crap has also infected the bond movies. The brosnan films suffered from this. Especially the world is not enouhj. And the same thing with quantum of solace.
Fuck that nonsense. It is not sad or hard being james bond. It is awesome being james bond.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 15, 2012 16:01:30 GMT -5
There's a difference between a sad superhero - and a superhero who deals with sadness.
In superman the movie jor-el is sad about the immenent doom of krhpton. Yet he acts heroically for a greater good.
Young clark is sad because he doesn't understand his conservative parents and hates assholes like brad.
Superman is huuuuuugely sad when he can't prevent the death of lois lane. So much that he defies all the wise/restrained rules jor gave him
Superman is sad in superman 2. He gives up his powers for an unrealistic relationship. He has to BEG for a redemption. And then he is sad because he can't have the relationship he wants.
In superman 3 his repressed anger and resentmant come to the forefront and we see superman in an existantial crisis. Superman tris to kill clark kent. Superman grapples with his neurosis. At the end of the day even h is first sweetheart lana only needs him AFTER she is with another mans child.
So.
We have the iconic christopher reeve superman.
We have atp's only acceptable superman.
We have a noble protagonist dealing with immense tragedy.
Seems like sadness is a part of supermans reality.
Pa kent will die.
Krypton will die.
So what we have is a hugely fickle and entirely inconsistant b*tchfest on the part of SOME who think that all of a sudden superman is a macabre character.
Entirely untrue.
The chris reeve series dealt with concepts that the george reeves series would never have approached.
To be "super" one must surpass the unfortunate realities of (real or imagined) normalcy. Whether its superman returns actually owning up to the conequences of chris reeves superman 2 or a new iteration of the origin of superman in a modern context.
In any case- the vinatge versions of superman will always be there.
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Jul 15, 2012 17:09:18 GMT -5
Bond is a tragic character; Rocky 2 was intentionally downbeat (until the final act); the angst works for some super heros (Val is right, but ironically, Marvel heroes are all supposed to be flawed)
Superman should be hope and majesty personified. So yeah, I do agree with ATP on some points. Smallville and ST have probably given Supey a downbeat introspective identity. Have Super question himself etc, but mix it with the fun.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 15, 2012 17:11:57 GMT -5
I believe it started with Spiderman--- the comic book, not the movie- back in the 60's with Stan Lee and Ditko! (*which is why I thought Raimi got it dead on with the movies--- much of Lee's run is soap opera but with a snarky sense of humor snuck in, and oddly still is very readable today, decades later).
At the time, it was revolutionary--- but also became Lee's style, it seems. Iron Man was born of tragedy, Dr. Strange (which actually may be more Steve Ditko's creation, but that's a whole other discussion) the same, Captain America was brought back under a tragedy, etc. etc.
DC heroes, by contrast, were generally all fun and bright- and- more aimed towards wonder (and at the same time the silly) prior to this.
DC soon became more like Marvel comics in the 60's and dealt with pollution, identity crises, etc. etc.--- and seemed to try to mimic the darkness.....so it's not exactly like the darkness is just something that came overnight with Burton's Batman.
But- yeah, I hear what you're saying about the current superhero movies seeming like they HAVE to be dark. That's why I mentioned loving the fact that Avengers- which is more fun than darkness- made a billion dollars just as Dark Knight- which is all dark- will also probably make a billion as well.
It all depends on what age group I think the studios feel that the summer blockbuster movies must skew to.
The "Brave and the Bold" Batman cartoon series I'm having a ton of fun seeing with my nieces and nephews because its' FUN as you mention and skewed for a younger audience.
But- having said that- WB & the other majors might feel like they NEED to be somewhat 'dark' to target 15-22 year olds.... who knows? But that's just my best guess. Certainly, even "Harry Potter" which is supposedly for all ages is pretty dark.
There's also something to be said for what seems like the current marketplace's tastes are, too. I remember when "Sound of Music" was at the top of the boxoffice charts wayyyyyyyy back when- (almost impossible to believe now) and the rather silly innocent Disney films being boxoffice giants.
So, anyhow--- Marvel's always been about unhappy heroes imo- and DC's kind of followed them, even/when they didn't necessarily need to. Would have been awesome to have seen a Robert Zemeckis (back when HE was a fun filmmaker) take on Superman after Donner left, as I think you need a very clever filmmaker to pull of a fun non-dark superhero these days.....even if it'd be hard to find a studio to back it now (it seems)!
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 15, 2012 17:14:55 GMT -5
It's nice to have characters who have flaws (it creates conflict and without that, you have no story). It helps you relate with the characters. I think everyone blows the "unhappy" superhero a little out of proportion at times. I think some tend to confuse it with how cliche it's become nowadays because there are more and more superhero films coming out these days. But there's nothing wrong with these characters having flaws and questioning their role in the world (it's all to help you to put you in their shoes)....the only problem is that it's very common (and cliche) due to the inflation of these movies.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 15, 2012 17:17:04 GMT -5
Another theory as to why Superman is so unhappy--- With all of his great powers and looks, etc. etc. etc.--- out of the millions of women on the planet, he only seems to be attracted to a woman who treats him like crap. (Ok, it's his alter-ego, but still). Maybe valid?  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2012 17:30:45 GMT -5
I've always found that aspect of the character fascinating, to be quite honest.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2012 19:41:09 GMT -5
If I had superpowers, I sure as shit wouldn't tell people. Too many shallow folks out there looking to exploit others for their own gains. And don't even get me started on the US Government. You'd never have a moment's peace again.
So, no, having superpowers could really suck.
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Post by MAVERICK on Jul 15, 2012 19:50:01 GMT -5
Not a sign of it in Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, The Avengers, etc...  |
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Shane
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Post by Shane on Jul 15, 2012 21:05:33 GMT -5
sell out
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 15, 2012 21:25:45 GMT -5
Not a sign of it in Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, The Avengers, etc... EVERY character in that picture have sadness/tragedy/anxiety embedded inn their mythology.  |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jul 15, 2012 21:53:05 GMT -5
Yes, but the films don't dwell on it, nor do they emphasize it instead of the heroic, entertaining stuff.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 15, 2012 22:05:31 GMT -5
Well, I get that.... and I get why SR gets some of the negative feedback from some folks- Supes is depressed from the experience of seeing the devastation of Krypton in person and has (he thinks) lost Lois in the process and is working through it.
Star Trek: Generations had its hero go through a similar loss for most of the film- and people weren't necessarily crazy about that one, too.
For me, I thought it rang true to the story- he doesn't get over it fast (and it would seem silly if he did), but to me there's a GIANT 'feel good' factor after he recovers, even if it's a tad bittersweet (he gets his love confirmed by Lois, with his son's existence, even if he has to move on because she's involved with Richard).
I don't think SR 2 would have had Supes be 'unhappy' the whole time, but it's hard to say--- I have this hunch that it'd be more like TDK had SR 2 happened--- darker and Supes would be angrier, not sadder, through the picture, if it happened. I doubt Singer (had he been in charge of the franchise) would have kept Supes in a sad place past SR for a whole series of films....
(*though, of course, who knows at this point? Just speculating...)
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Post by MAVERICK on Jul 15, 2012 22:11:52 GMT -5
Yes, but the films don't dwell on it, nor do they emphasize it instead of the heroic, entertaining stuff. |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 16, 2012 1:24:20 GMT -5
Here's the thing: In the Reeve era, all of us WANTED to be Superman.
But now it's actually the other way around. Smallville and SR almost make us feel thankful that we're NOT Superman.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 2:57:10 GMT -5
It's like arguing with a brick wall.
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Jul 16, 2012 4:00:05 GMT -5
Great way to reintroduce the character to the big screen after 2 decades eh?
See Captain America for how it should have been done.
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Post by Kamdan on Jul 16, 2012 8:21:03 GMT -5
That's one of the main reasons I didn't like Rami's Spider-Man films. He treated Spidey too much like Darkman, whose powers truly were a curse. Sure, Spider-Man had his bad days, but they were no where near as bad as they portrayed them in Spider-Man 2.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 16, 2012 8:51:59 GMT -5
Yes, but the films don't dwell on it, nor do they emphasize it instead of the heroic, entertaining stuff. we havent had a film about dr strange or sub mariner yet, but the other characters movies have sad bits in them. my point was that i dont see what ATP is bitching about. superman returns is somber, but superman himself is majestic. superman in all star is serious (dying of terminal illness) and yet he is majestic. the marvel movies are loaded with tragedy and daddy issues but the heroes prevail. life is short, life is shit and superheroes need to be able to overcome some shit for them to be analogous to the viewer. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 16, 2012 8:56:55 GMT -5
That's what I don't get when people bring up Cap as the way to do a superhero film, and SR not the way to do a superhero film--- love them both, but some treat it like and day, when both aren't that much different, when you break it down..... both are unlucky with the women that they love (and aren't happy about it), both have a good chunk of sadness to them, both endings are bittersweet (how can the ending of Captain America be an uplifting one?). Again, everyone can see the same half-empty/half-full glass and come away with two different things, I suppose... |
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 16, 2012 9:03:47 GMT -5
captain america is the best live action superman movie to date.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jul 16, 2012 9:23:15 GMT -5
That's what I don't get when people bring up Cap as the way to do a superhero film, and SR not the way to do a superhero film--- love them both, but some treat it like and day, when both aren't that much different, when you break it down..... both are unlucky with the women that they love (and aren't happy about it), both have a good chunk of sadness to them, both endings are bittersweet (how can the ending of Captain America be an uplifting one?). Again, everyone can see the same half-empty/half-full glass and come away with two different things, I suppose... Cap spends about five minutes mourning his best friend, five minutes explaining that he's a virgin, and exactly one line complaining about the fact that he didn't get laid in the 40s. So, that's roughly eleven minutes of "sadness" in a two hour film. Superman Returns has roughly eleven minutes of Superman in costume. No comparison. |
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