Kirok
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Post by Kirok on Sept 28, 2012 12:43:19 GMT -5
 I think a much better scenario would be a World's Finest movie. Seeing the two most iconic and popular superheroes of all time together for the first time on the big screen is an event in and of itself. Give that its due before throwing in the rest of the Justice League. Plus, it would seem like less of a kneejerk reaction to Avengers. With MOS coming, my hope would be a Batman reboot next, THEN World's Finest. I'd prefer a couple of sequels to each before that, but WB won't want to wait that long. Either way, Batman NEEDS to be re-established on his own before a team-up (WF or JL). The excitment OF a team-up is previously established characters (and actors) working together. I don't want to see Cavill's Superman and 6 new guys (and gals). |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 28, 2012 15:34:40 GMT -5
Just as long as it ends up leading to a JLA movie with all the regular actors from the solo movies and not two sets of actors.
If that takes 5 years so be it. No need to rush it. I'd rather have it done right than done right now.
I'd rather have solo movies that lead to JLA. Anything else reeks of laziness and greed. It shouldn't be like Avengers creatively or tonally but the fact that marvel took a bigger risk starting on the road to Avengers with less resources than WB and still made it happen means there is no excuse for a lesser film a half assed film or anything like that.
being different ONLY to be different when there is a better way is stupid. Batman and Superman should be in a JLA movie even if its for five minutes. They were in superfriends. They were in JL/JLU.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Sept 28, 2012 17:28:40 GMT -5
I don't care if they do solo movies first or not, mostly because I'm sick to death of origin story movies.
I think if you can make a movie like Expendables, where audiences are already familiar with the badass archetype being thrown together, you don't necessarily need to know the back stories and motivations for each of the characters. Audiences are now so familiar with the superhero archetype, in ways they weren't even ten years ago, that I think they can accept most of these characters at face value, without them needing to be set up first.
And really, I think the Superman and Batman franchises are so potentially rich with mythology and characters, in ways that, say, the Iron Man franchise isn't, I'd rather WB focus on building a lasting, epic, sci-fi Superman franchise, then worry about putting him in Justice League.
Also, the biggest issue I have with Batman in the Justice League is "Batman is more bad-ass than anyone, and could beat ANYONE with enough prep time." I'm sick of it, and even the most talented writers fall into that trap. I'd rather not have Batman in the Justice League at all than have to deal with that again.
And lastly, I don't want to see a "and this is how the team gets together" movie, where they get their ass kicked in the first act and then "have to learn to act like a team." And then "this is how they build their satellite" etc etc. Just go for it. Start 'em off as an established entity.
The Iliad didn't start with Achilles' birth and training and how he met Odysseus and Agamemnon, Star Trek (the original) didn't open with four episodes explaining the history of Starfleet and how Kirk rose through the ranks to become a captain, even X-Men didn't open with how Xavier founded the school and put the team together. And really, I hate to say it, but a character like The Flash or Martian Manhunter is just as irrelevant, if not more so, in the public's eyes than Storm or Cyclops were before that movie came out.
It would work just as well to start with the Justice League and then build outwards from there, and let the Batman and Superman franchises grow on their own. By all means, throw the fans a bone whenever possible and show that they co-exist, but I think it's tricky, if not fatal, to try to duplicate the 20 movie plan that Marvel is executing right now.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 28, 2012 21:29:14 GMT -5
Problem there is JL NEEDS to be an event AND good because WB will probably spend a ridiculous amount of money on it. The film AND their solo films need some good press and PR. And most of the characters outside of Batman and Superman have been good but failures financially OR failures all around. No good will from most non fans.
WW - hasn't seen live action success in THIRTY years. A failed tv pilot that didn't make air in the interim.
Aquaman -a tv pilot that hit I tunes but didn't get picked up
The Flash - a tv series that was on over TWENTY years ago and only lasted a season.
Green Lantern - arguably the biggest overall failure of a live action DC property in decades. Did worse all around than Superman Returns.
JLA tv pilot - never made air
Birds of Prey - made it thirteen episodes before it was canned. Not even a whole season.
Human Target. canned after two seasons.
Jury's still out on Arrow.
Risking damaging all their biggest characters images at once is more "fatal" than what Marvel is doing.
Batman and Superman should be in JLA because they DO have the mythology. They are the most marketable. They CAN be used to hook more people into seeing JLA with them in it than if they weren't in it. And most of the people that DO know anything about the JLA know that Batman and Superman are in it. Most of them have seen the cartoons not some old comics that even the fans didn't always give the most attention even when they were good comics.
WB's record with any character not named Kent or Wayne has been awful. There simply isn't a lot of momentum with ANY of their B level characters right now even if the films are good and while they have name recognition how many people really give a sh** about seeing them? A good movie does not guarantee box office success. WB needs to make the biggest statement they can with the most quality product they can with the most marketable product they have
No a JLA movie doesn't HAVE to be an origin film. They can be established. No the solo films don't all have to have origins either.
IF WB does JLA and it BOMBS ALL their non Batman Superman franchises are fucked. Is just as risky as Marvels plan but in a different way. heck its more risky. If Iron Man had failed they could have at least gone ahead with the other films even if they didn't lead to Avengers. Hulk DID under perform and Marvel still went ahead with the other Avengers related films.
If a JLA film with Flash and GL and WW and Aquaman and MM bombs why the heck should anyone care about seeing any of them in their own films later? or ANY non Batman and Superman DC films?
The total failure of Green Lantern has done enough to weaken DC's plans for individual characters getting their own films on its own and its not even directly connected to things like Flash or WW. SR underperformed but Superman is established enough to get another (rebooted) film in under a decade. Good luck with seeing a new live action GL film of ANY kind any time soon.
The way Marvel did it BUILT anticipation and let people learn about the characters even if the films didn't do full on origins. Thor didn't go through the title characters whole freaking life did it? He was already fully formed as a character he just went through a character arc and grew.
WB has been doing non shared universes for 30 years...and a lot of that has failed just as hard as anything we see now. Its missing a point to say they should let this stuff grow on their own when we've already seen that over and over and over and over and over and over again from the DC film and tv adaptations. its not like we haven't had it that way before. That's ALREADY been WB's standard operating procedure. its not going to make a difference in the quality on how they do it but its NOT anything new. Do it different from Marvel? They've been doing it differently from Marvel for decades.
lastly its funny to say start em all off as established when MOS is taking us back to Superman's beginnings...for the umpteenth time. If we don't need a JLA origin or a WW origin or a Batman Origin (which I kinda agree with you on) why do we need a Superman origin again? When he's had his origin told more on film and tv than most of the other DC heroes COMBINED. If ANY DC character doesn't need his origins retold again its Superman.
I don't really NEED a JLA origin on film but they need it more than Superman at this point. So do Flash and WW.
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Post by booshman on Sept 29, 2012 0:20:24 GMT -5
WB's record with any character not naked Kent or Wayne has been awful. ;D |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 29, 2012 9:07:56 GMT -5
You DO know it was a typo right? The typo nazi's around here have been in rare form lately. Anything to add about the actual content of the post?
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botz1
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Post by botz1 on Sept 29, 2012 14:36:31 GMT -5
JLA tv pilot - never made air . well with production pics like this one we should be all glad it never made it to TV  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 29, 2012 15:08:25 GMT -5
I don't know, Val-- I hear what you're saying about not wanting to see formulas repeated over and over again..... but, to me, the origin story is one of the most interesting (or should be, if done right) aspects of a superhero film, or a team film.
Even if you use the exact same formula as the Avengers (for example), if done properly, with the different characters in the JLA and how they interact with one another- the result should be so different, that it would/should still feel fresh.
I don't want anything to happen to screw up Joss Whedon's working for Marvel, but I half-wish that WB would take Joss Whedon up on his (half-joking it seemed) offer to 'call him' about setting up a JLA film properly.
But..... seeing as how upset Fox got over Singer directing SR, probably not a good idea....
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Post by booshman on Sept 29, 2012 19:33:56 GMT -5
You DO know it was a typo right? The typo nazi's around here have been in rare form lately. Anything to add about the actual content of the post? Oh come on, you have to admit, as typos go, it was pretty funny. I think Nazi is a bit strong. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 30, 2012 8:16:03 GMT -5
Not really since it comes off as nonsensical in the context of the sentence and is obviously a typo. I ain't that easily amused. More a wtf than funny.
As far as JLA and origins: The team doesn't need one but some of the characters do. I bet most of the people on this board couldn't tell anyone much about the Manhunter or Wonder Woman or Aquaman's origins.
If Aquaman is going to be on the team he needs his origin told in some way even if its two minutes to tell people who he is AND erase the fact that he's a walking joke to most people.
Wonder Woman's origin has only been told in full in one story twice in the last 35 years outside of comics.
The first episode of the 2001 JL cartoon handled a lot of this stuff best and would be a good thing to use for inspiration for a movie but Avengers already did the alien invasion plot. If JLA did it it would just be called a ripoff even though that was their canon origin for a while in the comics.
If the League is done without Superman and Batman I think they need some kind of origin story covered even more since the others aren't nearly as popular or established with the public.
It shouldn't take the whole film though. Their origins could be told during the opening credits the way it was done with The Incredible Hulk film and Ghost Rider SOV.
Of course a JLA origin film done properly has the potential to be more exciting and more daring than the Avengers ever was.
The scope of the characters backgrounds combined is FAR bigger. It spans the vastness of the cosmos to the realms of myth for not one but several Leaguers.
Maybe it could begin with a war between the United States and Atlantis that introduces Aquaman.
or we could use Wonder Woman's mythic background and have the threat be more supernatural. Aries causes the entire world to go to war as his armies. or Hades causes a literal heck on earth.
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Kirok
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Post by Kirok on Oct 1, 2012 11:06:11 GMT -5
Good point about an alien invasion already being done by "The Avengers." That rules out a lot of cool possibilities unfortunately, in particular the Martain Manhunter origin of the DCAU. However, since MM is no longer part of the JL lineup in the New 52, I doubt he'd be part of the lineup in a movie either.
No way this film is made without Superman and Batman though. It'll be the New 52 lineup, IMO. With possibly John Stewart instead of Hal Jordan as the Green Lantern.
I think a President Luthor plot would make for a big enough threat for the Justice League, especially if it's taken to its full potential (which outside of "Public Enemies" obviously, I never thought it was in the comics). In fact, Luthor's rise to the White House would be a good subplot to string through the solo films building up to JL, like the Cosmic Cube for "Avengers". I know the general concensus is audiences are tired of Lex Luthor, but this would be a Luthor they've never seen before on the big screen. As President he could engineer international incidents as well as pit the heroes against each other, which would lead to the main physical threat. Maybe Lex exposes Superman to Red Kryptonite and the rest of the League has to take him down? Then after Lex's defeat at the end of JL, he could come back as mad scientist/battlesuit Luthor in the sequel and form the Injustice League.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 1, 2012 13:04:39 GMT -5
Well.... If it's different enough, I don't know if the JLA filmmakers should write off anything right off the bat just because another superhero film used a similar plot point or element.... all in the execution, I think.
Plus, wasn't an alien invasion part of the source material of the JLA's origin to begin with?
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Kirok
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Post by Kirok on Oct 1, 2012 14:32:17 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I think the DCAU origin of the Justice League was perfect. I just don't think they'll go that route for two reasons: 1) "The Avengers" did an alien invasion, and people will already see this as a copycat (and with Thanos coming down the pipeline that might rule out Darkseid for a while too). 2) No Martian Manhunter. The powers that be will want to push their current brand, and MM isn't part of the team anymore. Needless to say, I think Starro is completely off the table:  |
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botz1
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Post by botz1 on Oct 1, 2012 18:39:02 GMT -5
I dont think people are going to give a crap if JLA has alien invasion..People are looking for entertainment. Huge disappointment if Lex is the villian.That would be shit writing like SR was. It called competition.. I look at it as Marvels Brand and then WB brand. Plenty of similar flims......Dante Peak/Volcano...... Armageddon/Deep Impact...War of the worlds/Independence Day/The day the earth stood still... Its goes on and on...So whats the difference here?  ? |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Oct 1, 2012 19:14:35 GMT -5
Botz, I can't believe I'm saying this, but...Botz, you're absolutely right.
The superhero film is now an established genre in the same way that the western, the disaster film, the alien invasion film, etc are. Now, this is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, these are established archetypes and bankable formulas, which are less of a gamble for studios and audiences. On the other hand, when a film hews to closely to genre convention, you end up with Green Lantern.
This is why I keep hoping so hard that the Man of Steel isn't so much a superhero film as a science fiction one. The same way that Batman Begins was less a Batman movie than a crime flick, and Captain America was as much a World War II film as a superhero one.
The very best episodes of Justice League and JLU played like ensemble sci-fi pieces. They were like really awesome episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation, but with superheroes. I think that's the best way to do Justice League on the screen.
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Post by Matt in the Hat on Oct 1, 2012 21:52:58 GMT -5
Midsummer's Nightmare is a good start. That was a good introduction to a modern JLA.  |
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Kirok
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Post by Kirok on Oct 1, 2012 23:27:18 GMT -5
Huge disappointment if Lex is the villian.That would be shit writing like SR was. That all depends on the writer. We've yet to see Lex Luthor done justice (no pun intended) on the big screen. The Post-Crisis version, especially with the political angle thrown in, would be something fresh and exciting. Plus, in a film overflowing with (presumably) unfamiliar characters, a recognizable "name" villain like Luthor would go a long way. Let's not forget, Loki was the big bad of "Avengers." No one complained about going back to the well on that, and we got one of the all-time best villains in comic book movie history! Yes, Lex has been featured four times previously, but three of those appearances were over a quarter century ago! By all indications he's not in MOS (though I'm hoping there's a twist with Christopher Meloni), and by the time a JL film gets rolling at LEAST seven years would have passed since SR. And again, all that aside, this scenario would present a totally new kind of Lex. |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Oct 1, 2012 23:49:03 GMT -5
If Lex is a supporting villain pulling strings in a JL flick or Superman sequel, I'm fine with that.
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Kirok
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Post by Kirok on Oct 1, 2012 23:58:59 GMT -5
The great thing about Lex is he's moved beyond being just "the villain." He's an essential member of Superman's supporting cast just as important as Lois Lane. He can be a presence without being a villain, and if they want to do some world-building in this new DC cinematic universe, Lex and Lexcorp is an ideal building block.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Oct 2, 2012 8:02:53 GMT -5
I agree. It's why I was a little disappointing that we never got a mention of "Oswald Cobblepot, crime lord" in the Nolan flicks. I realize that The Penguin is a tough sell in general, but it could be done. Imagine if Batman Returns wasn't such an abortion, and Danny Devito played the part straight, and without any ridiculous make-up, and he's just an angry, dangerous, high-ranking gangster or corrupt politician? Probably not interesting/exciting enough for the MAIN villain in a film, but certainly worth being part of the mythology.
I think that's where Lex's strength would be. Whether he's legitimate or a mad scientist or a combination of both (as he was on JLU). He's working behind the scenes to destroy Superman. He could be, in a shared DCU movie universe, the "Nick Fury" that shows up briefly or is mentioned in each film. Except this one isn't here to assemble a team of heroes, he's here to monitor meta-human activity. And then maybe after a few movies he loses it and injects himself with something or builds a warsuit and decides to take on Superman himself. That should be his last stand, though...
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Oct 2, 2012 16:13:56 GMT -5
I agree. It's why I was a little disappointing that we never got a mention of "Oswald Cobblepot, crime lord" in the Nolan flicks. I realize that The Penguin is a tough sell in general, but it could be done. Imagine if Batman Returns wasn't such an abortion, and Danny Devito played the part straight, and without any ridiculous make-up, and he's just an angry, dangerous, high-ranking gangster or corrupt politician? Probably not interesting/exciting enough for the MAIN villain in a film, but certainly worth being part of the mythology. I think that's where Lex's strength would be. Whether he's legitimate or a mad scientist or a combination of both (as he was on JLU). He's working behind the scenes to destroy Superman. He could be, in a shared DCU movie universe, the "Nick Fury" that shows up briefly or is mentioned in each film. Except this one isn't here to assemble a team of heroes, he's here to monitor meta-human activity. And then maybe after a few movies he loses it and injects himself with something or builds a warsuit and decides to take on Superman himself. That should be his last stand, though... i....LOVE that idea. make him the anti-nick fury- (well, actually, nick fury could be almost amoral if it suited his cause) - and have him be the hawkish skeptic of the universe- after the damage cause by zod how can we trust a kryptonian? and so on. i'd like to see him not only legit- but mainstream. have him become more and more zealous- maybe even have a quasi-sympathetic angle- perhaps superman or the JL indirectly hurt him in some way. let him recruit super-power muscle to challenge the JL. then he ultimately goes too far and breaks too many laws and so on. at any rate, lex should always see himself as the "good guy". |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Oct 2, 2012 16:49:12 GMT -5
YES.
In public, he's like a politician, or a CIA agent, or some other empty suit.
Behind closed doors, though, he's a brilliant scientist. With an eye towards metahuman controlling technology...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 3, 2012 11:41:27 GMT -5
I like this idea, but I think the problem with Luthor is that by this point in time, with all of the versions of Luthor--- It's been more/less demonstrated that he seems to represent mankind's pettiness.... and it's a twofold problem with reinventing Luthor, I think. (1) If you keep bringing that pettiness forward, he'll always remain a lesser villain than, say, Darkseid (who wants nothing than the complete destruction of everything) or the Joker (who represents total criminal insanity).... but.... (2) If you remove the pettiness, then it might not feel like the character is Luthor. I've said before that Luthor could be/should be recreated as a type of Hannibal Lecter.... a brilliant scientist/criminal genius- but without the pettiness... but I'm not 100% sure it would feel like Luthor after that. I hope that Nolan/Goyer/Snyder are able to figure out a way to make Luthor incredibly intriguing, and still be recognizably Luthor, when/if he's introduced in MOS or a sequel... But, one thing for sure- I'm TOTALLY fine if they ditch the real estate angle and toupees.  |
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Kirok
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Post by Kirok on Oct 8, 2012 8:16:19 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2012 0:50:28 GMT -5
I've decided that trying to follow the likely fuck-up that will ensue, in other words pre-production, that is futile. If they can make a damn movie, fine. If not, fine. I've lost my patience with Warner Bros.
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