Man of Steel - *Spoilers*

[Tristan D]

To copy SupermanUF, here's a blow by blow breakdown of my thoughts.

Krypton
I think actually this was my least favourite part of the film. There was distinctly a feeling that we were just going through the motions of a setup for the plot later, rather than it being organically just watching the characters. Tonally, cinematically, it seems very at odds with the rest of the film. I was actually relieved when this section ended.

In terms of production design, I was fine with a completely fresh interpretation, and mostly I think it works well. Though, I don't think I really liked the silly dragon riding.

That said, it wasn't really that I didn't enjoy it. I did like Shannon and Zurer in particular. The scene where Lara stands despondently watching Krypton implode alone was very haunting.

I think the concept for the Phantom Zone should have been explained or communicated better. I bought it because I knew exactly what was happening to them, but I think otherwise visually and communicatively it may have been confusing for some.

Smallville & Metropolis
I wish we had got some more time to explore these places, particularly the latter. Though what I did see was great. Loved the 'LexCorp' nods - clearly we're going to see the businessman Luthor at some point.

Is Jenny really supposed to be Jimmy? They didn't really say as much, but it seems a bit of a coincidental choice of name.

Superman
Cavill looks incredible. Not only the first Superman to really genuinely have a comic-book scale body, but he has gravitas and owns his scenes. He's his own Superman too. I don't think one can really compare him with Reeve. Their interpretation of the character seems very different, whilst still having the core values and characteristics.

I think they could have found some more inventive ways to use their powers, rather than relying mainly on brute strength. A little more use of X-ray vision, Super-breath and Super-hearing next time please!

Zod
Shannon's casting as Zod was inspired. He gives a very weighty furiousity to the role, which I think would be difficult to get from many other actors.

Jor-El
I quite liked the extended role that they gave Jor-El. I still prefer Marlon Brando in the role, but Crowe is decent, if a little hammy.

Lois Lane
I'm willing to put it out there that Amy Adams is probably on par with, if not better than, Margot Kidder as Lois Lane. She's brilliant, sassy but believable, bold but not a bitch, strong but also vulnerable. You completely understand why Clark falls for her.

I like that they have been bold and set it out that Lois knows who Clark is from the off. The whole song and dance about the diguise is fairly old hat and well-trodden ground. This way, the path is open for Superman to have a genuine confidante, and someone to talk to, which has been a major issue for previous incarnations.

The Action
By far and away, this is where the film hits a home run. This is the Superman action film that we have all wanted for years. Where freight trains get chucked around like bats, and skyscrapers topple.

That first time that Superman slams into Zod to save Martha was utterly amazing! I was also really hyped when they started their final aerial battle in Metropolis. That where this film really is amazing. The flying is the best I've ever seen in a Superman film, and they use it well.

The Soundtrack
I'll be honest, as amazing as 'An Ideal of Hope' / 'What are you going to do when you are not saving the world' is, I really didn't notice the soundtrack throughout the film, other than the odd time that the main motif / chords were played. Bit of a shame.

Other Thoughts
As amazing as the action was, I wish the last half / third had been given some more time to breathe. I've seen it written here that there seemed no time to take stock of the consequences of all this destruction. I think it would have helped to give a little more emotional punch.

In terms of product placement, despite a lot of coverage and discussion about the 100 sponsors, I really didn't notice anything. I mean, smashing through a 7-Eleven is not really what I consider product placement - it just places the situation in the real world. I would far prefer that to fake-imitation branding (Doogle?) that films sometimes makes that bring you out of the action and remind you that you're watching a film.

The relationship of the Kryptonian's powers and their atmosphere was not really well explained. I'm not quite sure I understand now why they could do somethings, but not others with their helmets on. As gaffs go, its nothing as much of a headache as the Turning Back the World was in STM, so I'm happy to let it slide.

Also, for information, Antje Traue looks stunning in this shot:

[Paul (ral)]

I'm surprised how many comic writers are posting about their dislike for the film.

Paul Dini is in no rush to see it!

[crazy_asian_man]

There are a lot of fair points in there, I'd disagree about Lois, going through the ship firing away at kryptonians, her dialogue with hamilton and co, she was the strongest Lois yet, and if you didn't care for her what the heck did you think about Bosworth?!

Thanks Kristopher- I appreciate that. I know I defend SR quite a bit, and I worry that people feel I'd be looking at MOS through SR 2 rose-color glasses.

Amy Adams has a lot of charm, but I kept on feeling like she was pretty soft spoken and her body language just never felt that imposing (to me). I know a lot of people thought she did great in the role.

I'd sadly have to disagree on Cavill too, he shits on Routh from a great height. Bigger presence, more commanding delivery, bigger and better physically, better actor.

I don't necessarily disagree, but maybe it's just terminology that's being used. Cavill is more experienced, Routh is still 'young' as far as his career goes. Routh I think was chosen primarily for the incredible resemblance to Reeve in voice and look, and it worked (for the most part)- but I'll always feel that a couple of line readings felt 'off' in SR. Cavill has far more experience and range than Routh, but for what SR was trying to do (continue the Donnerverse and Reeve's interpretation), Routh was the best (living) choice.

But yeah, most of that is quite fair, switching to the fishing boat just felt strange more than anything else. But we opened with the Krypton stuff which was fantastic, opening SR with a dark gothic mansion and Luthor sweet talking some dying old woman was just a horrible idea!

TOTALLY agree.... SR should never have deleted the RTK sequence that was at the front of the film. In a parallel universe, I do wonder if the RTK as an opener would have helped boxoffice wise and general reception of SR. Opening with that Lex scene, I went with, but never was crazy about. Similarly, I accepted (reluctantly) Singer's re-use of Lex's real estate obsession and the creepy widow romancing thing seemed to be more of a plot device to close up some logistical loopholes with timing (Lex's access to money and timing to go to the Fortress of Solitude at the same time Superman returns).

[crazy_asian_man]

Metallo

Great review- Want to re-read the whole later on & post up thoughts later, you mentioned a lot of things I neglected in my own thoughts that I totally agree with.

[Deleted]

Fuck Paul Dini, he sit at home and tear into a bucket of fried chicken instead the fat bastard.

CAM, yeah they really shouldnt have cut that part from SR, crazy. But as you will have seen the structure of MOS is my big problem with it, it just didn't flow very well at times for me personally, jumping back and forward. I also share Metallo's frustration in that because had it been structured better it really could have gotten a lot of critics off of its back and improved it that bit more.

[crazy_asian_man]

CAM, yeah they really shouldnt have cut that part from SR, crazy. But as you will have seen the structure of MOS is my big problem with it, it just didn't flow very well at times for me personally, jumping back and forward. I also share Metallo's frustration in that because had it been structured better it really could have gotten a lot of critics off of its back and improved it that bit more.

Watchmen's 'ultimate cut' worked much better than the theatrical, I thought... given Snyder's interest in dvds- maybe he DOES have one in mind for MOS! (It's a little suprising how some directors have no interest in revisiting/re-editing their old films on dvd to me)

Given how successful MOS already is boxoffice wise, you'd think WB would be open to it.....

In any case, given Snyder's string of bombs, he's got to be a VERY happy guy right now!

[Metallo]

Jun 15, 2013 14:40:59 GMT -5 @kris said:

Great review Tallo and welcome back.

You seemed to enjoy it more than I thought you would, and I'm actually surprised you admired the way Man of Steel was quite bold about going their own route with things. Some quick points with regards to your review.

I agree about Lois, I thought Adams was great but she was underwritten, this will surely very different in any sequel.

Regarding Snyder, I genuinely think he did a good job, for me the problems aren't there because of him.

For me the problems are in the structure and story, which was supposed to be Goyer and Nolan's field.

What you said about the second half not gelling together well is exactly how I feel, and I think it's why the action gives a sense of oversaturation and why many critics feel like they were overloaded, as I mentioned before I think that in turn has made them forget some of the brilliant emotive stuff that was in the earlier part of the film.

Faora was brilliant and so was the Colonel. The fact they created a little rivalry was excellent and Hardy feeding Faora's ' a good death is it's own reward' back to her just before he took them all out was fantastic. I thought Meloni, like the rest of the cast just nailed his part.

Thanks, Kris. Yeah theres some great stuff in the movie but they can't seem to sustain it til the end.

I put most of the blame for any problems on Goyer because its his script and while Snyder dials things back I think as director he was responsible for dialing it back a bit more when needed. If the visuals during the final Zod/Suprman fight in metropolis had been more measered and better put together instead of being so overblown at times it would have helped the film a lot. The great character stuff in the film is truly great.

The cast is for the most part excellent to good. I can't think of one bad performance in the whole movie. When Snyders on he's on and captures a few iconic moments. Even during the final battle I loved when Zod took his armor off and hovered for a second. Zod running up a building like a dog? Not so much. I was trying to remember where I'd seen that before and I think The Abomination did the same thing when he fought Hulk in The Incredible Hulk. I know I've seen it in another movie.

I didn't realize that Amy Adams tried out for Lois during the McG/Ratner era and for Superman Returns. She would have been a damn sight better than Bosworth thats for sure. She's good but the character stuff wasn't there for her to really get into.

I don't mind changes as long as they are good and make sense. Everybody puts their own spin on the visual stuff. Most of Supermans basic story is intact in MOS. They just add a few flourishes of their own. We've had 75 years worth of adaptations where Lois doesn't know for a while and looks kind of like an idiot. She finds out in most stories anyway. MOS just moved up when she finds out.

I give the movie credit for taking a few minor characters and really making them awesome. I really liked Faora too. She had just the right blend of sexy, creepy, and menace. Making Perry black was fine with me because they got a good actor. Its not a case of tokenism like Smallvile where they cast a black kid only to do nothing with him then write him out. Like I said MOS did more with Pete Ross in 2 minutes than Smallville did in two f***ing years. And they still end up being sort of friends (I think). If someone is changing sh** just to do it f*** them. I felt the same way about Iron Man. The world knows Tony is Iron Man? GREAT. It makes sense in this movie. Rhodes is Air Force now? Awesome. That makes sense. Stane works at Stark Industries? Even better.

Banes not the Barry Bonds of supervillainy? Fine. Cause Nolans version kicked ass. Banes a dumb mute made from plant juice? Go deepthroat a live wire, Schumacher.


I agree with you the worst problems are story related. Somehow Goyer keeps on falling up. Managed to get Blade after writing shit like Crow City Of Angels. Amazing.

Could you imagine what Snyder could do with a GREAT writer working on MOS 2? And I still think he should have been the guy that directed Green Lantern. That movie could have used his visual flare.

I forgot to add I LOVED this movies take on the Phantom Zone. Reminded me of simiar devices like Jump Gates from Babylon 5 but at the same time it combines the representastion of the PZ from STM with the version form the comics. Id put that in the comics. I thought putting the criminals on a giant ship was a bit of overkill though. But I liked the way Zod defied the council during sentancing.

[atp]

Seeing it the second time highlighted several Christ references I never noticed before:

1) After the oil rig rescue, you see Clark lying in crucifix position, with a beard, no shirt and rags around his waist.
2) When he is talking to the priest, you see Cavill in foreground and Jesus in the background in a stained glass window.
3) Superman reveals that he is 33 years old (and Zod also mentions the 33 year thing later on).

By the way, how come the priest is so blase when Kal-El reveals that he is an alien? How come he doesn't show any signs of his religious faith being challenged by the existence of an extraterrestrial?

[Metallo]

Jun 15, 2013 14:52:12 GMT -5 Tristan D said:

I think the concept for the Phantom Zone should have been explained or communicated better. I bought it because I knew exactly what was happening to them, but I think otherwise visually and communicatively it may have been confusing for some.

Yeah I didn't quite know what was going on during a few bits like when they got covered in that stuff.

I think they could have found some more inventive ways to use their powers, rather than relying mainly on brute strength. A little more use of X-ray vision, Super-breath and Super-hearing next time please!

I wanted more heat vision...cause it was awesome.

Other Thoughts
As amazing as the action was, I wish the last half / third had been given some more time to breathe. I've seen it written here that there seemed no time to take stock of the consequences of all this destruction. I think it would have helped to give a little more emotional punch.

Yeah that was my biggest beef with the film. Probably. I think it needed to show more of the aftermath. Alien demigods invade Earth and kick the ass of a few parts of the planet? We really needed to see a little more of the "after" from the worlds perspective or even from some of the major characters. I mean...Lombard was asking girls to go to a game with him like nothing happend. I know he's a d*** but..c'mon.

The relationship of the Kryptonian's powers and their atmosphere was not really well explained. I'm not quite sure I understand now why they could do somethings, but not others with their helmets on. As gaffs go, its nothing as much of a headache as the Turning Back the World was in STM, so I'm happy to let it slide.

I remember the idea in the comics that the atmosphere has played a part in Supermans powers in the past but the film did a poor job explaining what was going on for their take on that. They handwaved a lot of stuff like that in the movie. I didn't need a detailed description but a little bit more explaining would have helped.

[SupermanUF]

Jun 15, 2013 16:04:33 GMT -5 atp said:

Seeing it the second time highlighted several Christ references I never noticed before:

1) After the oil rig rescue, you see Clark lying in crucifix position, with a beard, no shirt and rags around his waist.
2) When he is talking to the priest, you see Cavill in foreground and Jesus in the background in a stained glass window.
3) Superman reveals that he is 33 years old (and Zod also mentions the 33 year thing later on).

By the way, how come the priest is so blase when Kal-El reveals that he is an alien? How come he doesn't show any signs of his religious faith being challenged by the existence of an extraterrestrial?

I've brought this up before, that Catholicism is deeply symbolic... we don't take the Bible literally like some fundamentalist sects of Christianity. I think Catholics would be fine if "God" was an alien.

heck, I went to Catholic school, and one day we had a lesson discussing whether or not Ezekiel's vision is actually describing an alien encounter (!).

[SupermanUF]

Jun 15, 2013 14:52:12 GMT -5 Tristan D said:

Also, for information, Antje Traue looks stunning in this shot:

She fine.

[Metallo]

Jun 15, 2013 14:57:52 GMT -5 Paul (ral) said:

I'm surprised how many comic writers are posting about their dislike for the film.

Paul Dini is in no rush to see it!

Wow. So Dini hasn't even seen it? The movies not THAT bad. I think he should give it a watch but I respect Dini's opinion. If its not for him its just not for him. He can write the heck out of DC stuff. He still writes a better Batman than Goyer.

If he's not crazy about the movie I can only imagine what Bruce Timm thinks.


[quote author="crazy_asian_man" source="/post/151749/thread" timestamp="1371326795TOTALLY agree.... SR should never have deleted the RTK sequence that was at the front of the film. In a parallel universe, I do wonder if the RTK as an opener would have helped boxoffice wise and general reception of SR.[/quote]

I can see why it was cut because the movie is already long but I liked it. I just recently watched it and even without the music its very effective IMO. It was more suspensful than both AVP movies.

I don't think leaving that scene in would have helped the box office at all. The movie just didn't have enough action even by the pre TDK/Iron Man standards. I think there is as better cut of SR that could be released though. I wish Singer would go back and recut it and mess with some of the filters but it doesn't look like thats goign to happen.

I dream of ultimate versions/cuts of all the movies. Only the die hards would be interested but it would be great.

[atp]

Don't you think the world was a little too quick to accept the existence of aliens? I mean, out of nowhere, they learn that not only is there an alien living among them, but now a UFO and more extraterrestrials are arriving!

No-one seemed to really be bothered by the revelation. Instead, there was some retard on TV debating about whether Kal-El should turn himself in!

Wouldn't this revelation turn things upside down for almost everyone? Like in Contact.

[atp]

SupermanUF said:

I've brought this up before, that Catholicism is deeply symbolic... we don't take the Bible literally like some fundamentalist sects of Christianity. I think Catholics would be fine if "God" was an alien.

heck, I went to Catholic school, and one day we had a lesson discussing whether or not Ezekiel's vision is actually describing an alien encounter (!).

Just had a thought ... if the Kryptonians had been to Earth 18,000 years ago on scouting expeditions, what does that imply about the origins of humanity? Did we descend from those Kryptonians? Wasn't there a dead body in the ship that Clark finds under the ice? Our ancestor maybe?

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2013 14:52:12 GMT -5 Tristan D said:

Also, for information, Antje Traue looks stunning in this shot:

She is stunning, she would be the ultimate danger ride

[Jack Tripper]

So I've been reading that a lot of people agree that while Goyer has some good ideas, he's not very well versed in fleshing out characters. So my question is, why does he seem to be the go to guy for big comic book movies? Surely there are better writers out there that have a greater grasp of the material. Seriously, why is his name always brought up for comic book movies?



Her and the big guy had the best fight scenes in the movie. The way she moved while she fought and just her overall demeanor was awesome. Definitely the highlight for me. I wish we could've seen more of her going 1 on 1 with Superman. Hopefully she's not dead and they bring back somehow. 

[botz1]

i was hoping for so sort of hint for the bad guy for the sequel, yes i saw the lexcorp sigh on the oil truck...They did the same thing as SR no easter eggs..And no mention of any sort of other heros, if they want to get JL going they should have started with this movie...

And i hated how superman could not even hold up one side on the oil rig..WTF!!!!! He aint spiderman..Thats bullshit, they depowered him way too much.

FU synder for doing that...Superman should be able to throw that rig one hand into space...

[SupermanUF]

Jun 15, 2013 16:40:11 GMT -5 atp said:

SupermanUF said:

I've brought this up before, that Catholicism is deeply symbolic... we don't take the Bible literally like some fundamentalist sects of Christianity. I think Catholics would be fine if "God" was an alien.

heck, I went to Catholic school, and one day we had a lesson discussing whether or not Ezekiel's vision is actually describing an alien encounter (!).

Just had a thought ... if the Kryptonians had been to Earth 18,000 years ago on scouting expeditions, what does that imply about the origins of humanity? Did we descend from those Kryptonians? Wasn't there a dead body in the ship that Clark finds under the ice? Our ancestor maybe?

I was also under the impression that is, in fact, what they were implying. I like it. I didn't read that prequel comic--only the panels that made it to the web--so I know that open pod probably belonged to Supergirl. But I wonder if that tank of embryos, IS, in a sense, a new interpretation of the bottled City of Kandor?

[SupermanUF]

Jun 15, 2013 17:05:51 GMT -5 botz1 said:

i was hoping for so sort of hint for the bad guy for the sequel, yes i saw the lexcorp sigh on the oil truck...They did the same thing as SR no easter eggs..And no mention of any sort of other heros, if they want to get JL going they should have started with this movie...

And i hated how superman could not even hold up one side on the oil rig..WTF!!!!! He aint spiderman..Thats bullshit, they depowered him way too much.

FU synder for doing that...Superman should be able to throw that rig one hand into space...

While Marvel's signature post-credits sequences are fun, I applaud DC for not following suit just because it's popular. They keep their heads held high.

And, personally, I like to see Superman struggle and strain to lift things. Keeps it interesting visually.

I'd also be willing to believe the line of thought that back when the oil rig happens his powers are still developing.

[Metallo]

Jun 15, 2013 17:05:51 GMT -5 botz1 said:

i was hoping for so sort of hint for the bad guy for the sequel, yes i saw the lexcorp sigh on the oil truck...They did the same thing as SR no easter eggs..And no mention of any sort of other heros, if they want to get JL going they should have started with this movie...

And i hated how superman could not even hold up one side on the oil rig..WTF!!!!! He aint spiderman..Thats bullshit, they depowered him way too much.

FU synder for doing that...Superman should be able to throw that rig one hand into space...

No post credits scenes or anything like that but Man Of Steel had the Wayne Enterprises logo on the satellite that got smashed through.

In Superman Returns "Gotham" was mentioned as reports of Supermans exploits around the world were being broadcast.

Jun 15, 2013 17:04:24 GMT -5 Jack Tripper said:

So I've been reading that a lot of people agree that while Goyer has some good ideas, he's not very well versed in fleshing out characters. So my question is, why does he seem to be the go to guy for big comic book movies? Surely there are better writers out there that have a greater grasp of the material. Seriously, why is his name always brought up for comic book movies?

Because Hollywood isn't very original...and money talks. The guy got attatched to one of the most successful superhero trilogies of all time with Batman and has exploited that connection ever since. Before that he did the same thing with Blade to get his foot in the door. Between his work with New Lines Blade and WB's Batman he's been part of teams that have made Time Warner some money over the last 15 years.

Goyer really is a great self promoter.

Her and the big guy had the best fight scenes in the movie. The way she moved while she fought and just her overall demeanor was awesome. Definitely the highlight for me. I wish we could've seen more of her going 1 on 1 with Superman. Hopefully she's not dead and they bring back somehow. 

Yeah I think that was my favorite fight in the movie too. I loved Faora. Eveybody seems to. She was just right for the role.

[crazy_asian_man]

I really like this films version of Krypton. Its got a more modern slant production design wise. Very detailed but this Krypton also has a Silver Age craziness to it. I loved Jor El hopping on the giant space dragon or whatever the heck that was. It does much more to create a "world" for us to experience. Only issue I had was there was a little too much going on in some shots. I know they wanted to create this frenetic chaos as we are witnessing a battle/attempted military coup and the planets destruction but it was a lot to take in in some shots. But I loved some of the shots of the landscape and the wildlife. Like I said we get to experience more of what Krypton is like.

Me too…. I wish we got a few moments of Krypton when it was 'peaceful' before the storm as well.

Crowe is solid as Jor-El. I like that he got to do a bit more and take on Zod before the end. Reminded me of Jor -El "man of action" like we've seen before such as in Superman TAS. He didn't blow me away but its a strong performance. Doesn't feel like he phoned it in or anything like that. I think I liked his performance as the Jor-El A.I. later on even more. You could tell that what Jor-El was was still there but it was like a digitized version of a faded photocopy. It felt a bit more cold and to the point. the IDEA of what it was came off well. It was a subtle distinction that I think he did a fine job showing.

I agree- Crowe is surprisingly great. I get why they didn't want to do a dated 'holograph' type fx over Crowe- but I would have preferred SOMETHING (maybe a metallic creepy version like the other communication) over Jor-el as a.i. in the film.

Cavill is great...when the film really lets him come alive. I know he's supposed to be kind of somber because of where he is in his life. He's kind of "lost" emotionally trying to find out who he is, where he comes from, and what he's here for. When he gets to do more than furrowed brow expressions hes good. His line delivery is solid. Less stiff and awkward than Rouths was at times even though I liked Routh a lot. That's no slight on Brandon but Cavills a more experienced actor at this stage in his career. Cavills certainly got more gravitas and more of commanding presence as Superman than Cain did as Superman or Welling did as pseudo-Superman in training (near the end of Smallville). I think Cain got to show more charm but again thats because Cains Clark/Superman and Cavills Clark/Superman are in such different places in there lives.

Great point. It's a similar argument as to why I thought Bosworth didn't do such a bad job, too--- it's Lois in a weird point of her life and she might not have seemed as 'Lois' as she would have otherwise. (Though I will concede that I think Erica Durance would have been a much better choice)

Another time Cavill and the film REALLY come alive is the stuff with the Kents. I love Diane Lane. She gives Martha some great southern gal quirks. I like that they didn't' mind aging her up for the present day stuff. She came of like a real person instead of only this untouchable ideal of parenthood. She was a great mother but she felt like a REAL mother. The Flashback with Clark trapping himself in the closet or room or whatever is another strong scene. The "X raying through everything" stuff was done before in Smallville but the way MoS handled it was great.

I think it could have been executed a little better, though. I got the impression in the trailer that Martha actually went into the same room (and not through a door) to comfort him. It was ok in the film, but I may have had a different conception of how it was going to be done via the trailer.

Most of the flashbacks really work even if the way some of them are included is a little jarring. Young Clark kinda had me laughing because he looked a little like Welling when he saved the bus but he looked like an ACTUAL KID.

True! As opposed to a 20+ year old posing as a Teenager! (for years on end)

I admired how the film revolves around the core of Superman and his two fathers and I love how instead of working against each other its almost like their efforts were in concert for different parts of Clarks life when needed. Clark really does come off like a child of two worlds instead of a child of one or the other the way its been in past incarnations and personally thats something I've always wanted. I've always felt it should be that way instead of belittling one or the other.

Yeah… I didn't like that in the Smallville tv show.

I think one weak spot is Lois and specifically Clark and Lois's relationship. Amy Adams is a damn good actress but I kind of think she's miscast or they didn't do enough to give her better "character" moments. She does the best she can here but she never really gets to show off Lois's spitfire side much and when she does it didn't' quite click for me. I know its a different take but still...I think she would have been a better Lana than Lois.

I'm of the same mind- Amy just felt miscast- too soft spoken and little girl-like to me for Lois. Not enough testosterone imo.

That kind of stuff is one place Joss Whedon kicks David Goyers ass up and down the street. Joss knows how to do character stuff, dialogue, etc.

Absolutely. The human stuff is Whedon's strength… and Goyer's weakness.

I liked Shannon's take on Zod. Its not as ...refined(?) or broad as Terence Stamps excellent turn as The General but I welcomed a different version. I love Stamps work but Shannon is good. I think if I had to highlight some key differences its that Stamps Zod comes off more like nobility that is more refined and sees himself as superior. Shannon's Zod struck me more as as true military lifer. He's a harder man but equally as ruthless. He's someone I could see as a grunt who rose through the ranks at some point. Shannon doesn't overplay it but he gets to give his Zod more emotion and his versions is portrayed as a man with a more understandable purpose even though he's twisting that purpose so that the ends justify the terrible means.

I liked Faora too. She comes off as exotic but at the same time incredibly cold blooded. More so than Zod. She's a real psychopath underneath that pretty surface.

Zod and Faora are great…..but light on characterization. I wanted more.

I think one of my favorite characters in the whole movie was Chris Meloni's Col. Hardy. I loved his almost rivalry with Faora. Snyder and Goyer and the cast and crew created real tension when Faora kept advancing towards him after his chopper crashed during the Smallville battle. He didn't give up even when he knew she was unstoppable. They both pulled their blades and I thought Hardy was dead. Great save by Superman. The film needed more moments like that to build drama and tension. They put a good characters life at stake after we got a chance to know him and it works. The character accepted Superman because Clark showed him what kind of man he was and in the end I think Hardy was an even bigger hero. when he crashed into Zods ship it created a great moment. The callback to Faoras line about a fine death being its own reward was priceless too. Meloni always seems to excel at authoritative characters like this. If the dude was 20 years younger I'd love to see him in a superhero role of some kind. Not sure what. But MOS shows why he was a better Hal Jordan than Ryan Reynolds and he did it in a freakin cartoon.

Meloni was hilarious on a late night talk show recently. Cool guy. If memory serves right, then he was the voice for Green Lantern in one of the animated films.

Where I think the movie suffers is the second half and broadly speaking the weak connective tissue of the film for lack of better words. There are great moments but as a whole i didn't feel like everything quite gelled. Some scenes and sequences work (amazingly well in a few cases) and others just didn't register for me. The way some of the present day scenes all unfolded after Clark saved the rig felt as little clunky. The flow wasn't always smooth and I don't mean because of the inter cutting of flashbacks.

Snyder has bad 'flow' with many of his dramatic scenes, outside of MOS, too. (the only one I haven't seen is his Dawn of the Dead)

I enjoyed the Smallville battle between Supes and Zods crew more than the final big action set pieces of the film because I think the HUMAN stakes were not only high but better represented. We saw people in the streets fleeing and hiding and before that Martha was being threatened. Later on the Kryptonians were crushing the military like they were insects. I LOVED when Faora gets hit with the missle. Its like she's surrounded be a sea of fire. Very cool. I appreciated shots like that because it showed the kind of power these people were wielding. But as the fight between Superman Faora and Namek progressed the CGI...looked thouroughly like CGI in places. I appreciated the scope of it but sometimes less is more. These problems were only magnefied at the end of the movie.

The Smallville battle felt a bit better--- one reason I think is that the pacing feels a LITTLE more 'real time' with moments of slow gaps. If Snyder chose to do shakicam to make it feel like cinema verite- then the editing needed to follow (that is, allow slow moments as well if it's following 'real life'.) the same rhythm, I thought.

I guess this is PARTLY my fault because I expected the final battle between Superman and Zod to be MUCH better. When it was over I was like "thats it?" People built it up to be amazing. I mean its all big time stuff scale wise but like I said I didn't feel the tension was there like it should have been and the way it played out didn't quite work for me. It all felt staged and blatantly so. Like they were going through a checklist "OK its time for the big fight so lets fight!" I think what I'm trying to say is all this stuff didn't play out as organically as it should have. Not to me anyway.

I agree- I think it's because- again- the breakneck non-stop pace of editing. I again compare it to the early Rocky movie boxing fight scenes- where it's more about closeups and different emotions that come up from both opponents as each is dodging/attacking. The best part of the shark's attack in Jaws at the end is having the suspenseful moments where you DON'T see the shark but know he's out there, circling the heroes. I think there never was a problem with too much action, as there was a good sense of rhythm and balance to really engage you and make you care about the action.

Avengers' last action scene was a bit lacking, too- but at least they alternated with some nice varied moments between characters too (and humor in the right spots helped).

The Avengers, Iron Man and even Thor did a better job with this even though the battles in MOS are much more ambitious. Arguably even more ambitious than those in The Avengers. I think its because the human element doesn't get lost and those action pieces are much better paced and plotted. And even though there is "less" that allowed the film makers to make that 'less" better. Not only that but there was a steady logical build to that finale. It was clear what Loki's plan was pretty early on.

Ah! You put it beter than I did!

I know Superman was busy stopping Zod but I think we needed to see more of the human factor with the people in peril and Superman trying to save them while Zod and the Kryptonians unleashed heck. We saw a bit when the World machine and Black Zero were doing their things but not enough (especially after both were destroyed). Metropolis's destruction was looking like 9/11 times ten but I didn't feel the tension and sense of a threat to the city or the people. When Supes and Zod crashed through skyscrapers I can only imagine how many people were in some of them or on the ground when they fell. In Avengers we not only saw people suffering but we saw the Avengers saving people during the battle. It added to the tension because we saw how high the stakes were and we saw how the Avengers had two things to worry about at once: the invasion and the people. Superman II's Metropolis battle had some of the same good things going for it. We got to see the human stakes elevate the drama as Superman had to deal with the Phantom Zone criminals and helping/protecting the people at various points and. It felt organic and not tacked on either.

Agreed…. I didn't mind Metropolis being destroyed, but to REALLY make it feel like the battle was escalating, we could have had Superman having more and more difficulty alternating between saving innocents along the way AND having to battle Zod as well. Instead, all the buildings seem ridiculously (and conveniently) empty of people.

Can you imagine the last battle with Superman having to catch innocents as they fall out of buildings AND trade blows in the air with Zod?

We also saw how it all became too much for the Avengers at points like when Cap saved the people in the bank only to get blown out a window by a grenade of some kind. or when Hulk got cornered by a squad of chitauri in the air. or even when they almost dog piled on Iron Man. Top that off with the security council ordering a nuclear strike on NYC and Iron Man having to make a choice to be the guy who "lays down on the wire." Something that beautifully mirrored what Captain America himself did 70 years before. Stark had a good bit of character development in that movie and thats why Steve Rogers chiding him earlier in the movie resonated so well. Cap had been there and we'd SEEN IT. Whedon just did a brilliant job building the stakes and the tension even though we all knew the Avengers were going to pull out the victory. I just didn't think we saw enough of that when Zod was basically threatening the world. There have been films far less ambitious than MOS but they achieved their goals far better. Maybe because their reach didn't overextend their grasp creatively speaking. In MOS the end--for me anyway--felt like watching a video game. Like watching someone else play a video game at that.

Yeah. Exactly my feeling- and a blurry video game at that!

With The Dark Knight Rises there was this great tension in Batman's two battles with Bane that I just didn't feel when Superman fought Zod. Which is kind of strange. There was a much stronger feeling of it being unavoidable and that those two (Batman and Bane) were on a collision course. Its even more strange since we all KNEW the end would come down to Superman vs Zod.

I feel its because we weren't allowed/ creative decision seemed to be made/ to not show more varied reactions/shaded emotions from Superman. If Superman hasn't really been in fistfights all of his life--- then realistically, we would have seen moments of freakout and fear in Superman's face if this was relatively new to him, during battle - versus Zod, who was supposed to have a large advantage, being someone who was bloodthirsty and could kill in cold blood. I really feel if there were more 'acting' in the superbattles, it would have had more of an impact.

With Bane/Batman, you got a feeling (at least in the first battle) of Batman's exhaustion and pain. You don't feel nearly as much in the Zod battle.

It just felt like a convenient way to have Superman kill Zod in the end. If they had build up to it better I would have been more ok with it. Even in the comics the guilt drove Superman nearly insane. In the film he lets out a scream and then that's pretty much it. We don't really get to see the emotional consequences of his actions nearly enough.

Totally agree…. especially given a lifetime of turning the other cheek and putting others' welfare first before his own. It should have been devastating…..but then again, so should the idea of seeing Metropolis become a wasteland. So, not exactly that realistic.

In the end I'd give the film a solid 7/10 at most.

Right now I give it a solid 6/10. But, I do really want to see an extended version, so I think I do see a lot of good possibilities within it, though.... and maybe some of our concerns might even be allayed if Snyder did shoot things that gave it a better flow and context.... (* SR I gave 7 or 8 out of 10, STM 9)

[Deleted]

the fight with Faora was the best action moment of the film. Hes stronger than her, but initially she batters him because she was simply much more a skilled and a born and bred warrior.

Thank god Superman didn't just flick the rig back up with one hand, that's the kind of thing that has a lot of people complaining that Superman's a bore. It add's much to the scene when you see him straining.


I fucking loved when he's learning to fly, Cavill was great, when he first explodes into the air and he actually laughs like a kid with a new toy, reveling in the discovery of a power he didn't previously have.

The bit where he conquers it and Zimmer's flight music kicks in was majestic though, when he does the crouched take off before flying all over the world.

[Jack Tripper]

Jun 15, 2013 17:27:14 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Because Hollywood isn't very original...and money talks. The guy got attatched to one of the most successful superhero trilogies of all time with Batman and has exploited that connection ever since. Before that he did the same thing with Blade to get his foot in the door. Between his work with New Lines Blade and WB's Batman he's been part of teams that have made Time Warner some money over the last 15 years.

Goyer really is a great self promoter.

Okay so it's pretty much a situation of him getting his foot in the door and never leaving the room. Thanks for the clarification. 

[botz1]

Jun 15, 2013 17:48:09 GMT -5 @kris said:

Thank god Superman didn't just flick the rig back up with one hand, that's the kind of thing that has a lot of people complaining that Superman's a bore. It add's much to the scene when you see him straining.

.

I disagree...You dont want to depower him too much..He's has god like powers for 70 years, why change that aspect now. The other changes i dont mind.

i dont say flick it back, but dont have it fall on him like a pussy and knock him out..Have him at least gently put it on the ground or something..

[Deleted]

Nope. That ain't what people want to see, and Superman has been vastly powered and depowered over the past 75 years. The animated version had him the weakest out of any incarnation and I'm not alone in thinking it's the BEST incarnation yet.

People who hate Superman hate him because he is basically a unrelatable god. You take that away, you take away people's complaint.

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