Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 18:17:09 GMT -5
Word of mouth was strong for BB? Not where I was it wasn't. MOS has done better than BB as a reboot. BB was better received. And I cost a LOT less so there's that to factor in. This was at a time before we regularly saw some of the huge grosses we are seeing now so for its time BB was pretty steady at the box office. It outperformed SR domestically. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 18:22:22 GMT -5
I dont remember word of mouth being great on it though, and as much as people are desperate to discredit MOS it still did better at the box office, that's the bottom line, cuz Stone Cold said so.
You might say theatres were less saturated with comic book movies then and that made BB an easier sell too. Plus it's Batman, he was already more popular than Superman.
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Post by EnriqueH on Jul 21, 2013 18:31:46 GMT -5
Kris, BB had phenomenal word-of-mouth.
WAAAAAAAAAAAY before Heath Ledger died, BB had great word-of-mouth. I know because I went to see it because of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 18:35:48 GMT -5
Maybe that was just in the USA or because one of your mates said 'that films alright you should see it'. But I dont remember it having particularly good word of mouth, I know because I was in the loop, I SAW what BB made, and it wasn't as much as MOS despite this so called wonderful word of mouth. Chortle  |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 18:38:29 GMT -5
There were plenty of comic movies back then. The explosion happened after Spider-Man. There were 3 marvel movie adaptations out that year alone if you count Blade 3 which opened in December of 04. Constantine came out in 2005. Crow 4 came out in 2005. History of Violence came out in 2005. Sin City came out in 2005. Man Thing got a limited release in 2005. Son of The Mask came out in 2005. V For Vendetta came out in 2005.
Maybe you don't remember the word of mouth because you didn't keep up with it? You've said you've never been a big fan of the Nolan series anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 18:41:58 GMT -5
I liked BB though. And no, it wasn't nearly as saturated as it is now, since then loads of films have came and gone, FACT.
Word of mouth isn't something you should have to keep up with, it's something that naturally goes around if a film is good enough, it's how people who aren't big CB fans end up going to see films like the Avengers. But aside from that, I'm a Batman fan, so I was well aware of it.
I know you're agreeing with Enrique, but bear in mind 90% of what he's posting is one big fishing trip too.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 18:48:00 GMT -5
There were a bunch of comic book films before Begins come out too. This was WBs second to around with Batman after all. That has nothing to so with the completion that year though and Begins had plenty. You said "theaters weren't as saturated then". Yeah they were. You might say theatres were less saturated with comic book movies then and that made BB an easier sell too. Plus it's Batman, he was already more popular than Superman. You weren't talking about old long past released movies. Batman may have been more popular than Superman at one point but at fhst time Batman was in the same fuckin dog house after Batman & Robin, Catwoman, and Birds of Prey all failed spectacularly. Just like with Superman WB spent years wandering around in various directions to take and didnt have a clue about any of them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 18:56:35 GMT -5
It's really simple.
The more that come out, the more people have a tendency to get bored of that particular type of film. Superman has to deal with that now more than Batman Begins did then because many more comic book movies have came out since, it also has to deal with the fact the character isn't exactly at the height of his popularity in the modern age. MOS wasn't just divisive once it was released, even before hand I was hearing things like 'eh Superman again?'. This wasn't even just from other forums, it was in the local papers and tv guides.
I don't know why that's hard to understand or why it's hard to admit that when you take those factors into account Superman had more going against it. At the end of the day, it grossed more than BB in spite of the apparent "phenomenal word of mouth" which was my main point.
I know superherohype has its share of morons but sometimes its nice to have a little read at that forum to remind myself that there's actually not that many gloom and doom merchants determined to picked MOS apart like vultures as this place would suggest. It's also great to see Superman and Batman fans already gearing up to go to war.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 19:07:56 GMT -5
It's really simple. The more that come out, the more people have a tendency to get bored of that particular type of film. Superman has to deal with that now more than Batman Begins did then because many more comic book movies have came out since, it also has to deal with the fact the character isn't exactly at the height of his popularity in the modern age. MOS wasn't just divisive once it was released, even before hand I was hearing things like 'eh Superman again?'. This wasn't even just from other forums, it was in the local papers and tv guides. I don't know why that's hard to understand or why it's hard to admit that when you take those factors into account Superman had more going against it. At the end of the day, it grossed more than BB in spite of the apparent "phenomenal word of mouth" which was my main point. I know superherohype has its share of morons but sometimes its nice to have a little read at that forum to remind myself that there's actually not that many gloom and doom merchants determined to picked MOS apart like vultures as this place would suggest. It's also great to see Superman and Batman fans already gearing up to go to war. Batmans been up against the same problems and did fine. marvels been up against the same problems and done fine. If MOS was a must see movie more people would have come. Superman's not some third rate comic book hero or lesser known. The Superman name alone is going to affect more attention. And it GOT more attention. You can't say it didn't. But that hype bled off faster than expected. That wasnt just because of a glut of similar movies. The "comic book movie fatigue" idea isn't always the reason and its sometimes just an excuse to avoid the real issues. Sometimes its a pisss poor excuse. People have been using it for YEARS and yet we still see some of newest best movies make a freakin fortune. People were saying the fad was getting old five years ago and yet the best ones can still make a load of cash. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 19:34:47 GMT -5
I can't make it any clearer for you 'tallo. And you and me both know Superman isn't particularly popular now days, ESPECIALLY with the kids who are the so called new fans they want to hook. With Marvel getting a head start on DC and being all the rage rebooting Superman after SR was never going to be easy.
Talking of excuses, that's what I'm seeing now, from Enrique too. What I said about people losing interest or passion for these kinds of films happens, it's human nature and given the large number of people who seem a bit fed up with Superman in general I think that makes it a harder sell. But I'm basically getting excuses for why BB didn't make more than MOS.
You're very glass half empty type of person when it comes to MOS, you say Nolan's name was there to make extra money (which is true), but at the same time not prepared to admit Snyders name being on it lessens that effect considerably (I in know a number of people away from the internet who weren't even willing to give it a go because it's a Snyder film), talking about false drama but praising Batman films that are bloated with that type of thing, the instance on pointing the finger at Snyder and Goyer but never Nolan.
We obviously don't see eye to eye on it and never will, but just remember Enrique's taking the piss,so when you see something negative about MOS you don't always have to rush in to agree with it because quite often he'll be talking bollocks. But thinking back to initial reactions when this film was just going into production and one or two other comments I can't help but feel there's a deeper hatred of Snyder that's fueling some of this too, I mean it shouldnt be hard to admit that its harder to sell MOS now than it was BB then, yet here we are debating it. Even in the other thread when I made it clear Superman didn;t throw Zod through buildings, rather than admit that was bullshit you moved it on to 'oh but what about in Smallville' when Faoro went through iHop.
just sayin
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Post by EnriqueH on Jul 21, 2013 19:54:52 GMT -5
I can't make it any clearer for you 'tallo. And you and me both know Superman isn't particularly popular now days, ESPECIALLY with the kids who are the so called new fans they want to hook. With Marvel getting a head start on DC and being all the rage rebooting Superman after SR was never going to be easy. Talking of excuses, that's what I'm seeing now, from Enrique too. See, speaking seriously, it's this EXACT thinking that inspires me to keep going and breaking your balls. From day 1, you're just brushing off people's opinions. Different points of view are just a "throwaway gesture" to you. Again, it's akin to talking and then covering your ears and saying, "Na-na-nee-na-na." I've said it several times: I enjoyed MOS, though it wasn't what I'd call an "awesome movie". It was ok. But there WERE problems with it. You just don't want to admit those problems, obviously, because you keep making excuses for it. You don't think a 60% drop in week 2 is a significant red flag? You don't think that's an indicator that word-of-mouth isn't strong? You honestly don't see people reacting negatively or nonchalantly towards the movie? Seriously? You honestly think it's comic book fatigue? Why is Iron Man 3 the #1 movie of the year so far? Man of Steel had one of the biggest, if not the biggest, June openings EVER. Would it have accomplished that feat if there really was comic fatigue? The bigger questionis why couldn't it sustain that momentum? The only possible explanation is word-of-mouth. There was a lot of anticipation out there, and it's first weekend success was an indicator. But it fizzled out. Why? That kind of big drop reminds me of the drop Ang Lee's "Hulk" suffered. Big first weekend, monster drop in week 2. Not surprisingly, Hulk didn't have good word of mouth either. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 19:58:46 GMT -5
I can't make it any clearer for you 'tallo. And you and me both know Superman isn't particularly popular now days, ESPECIALLY with the kids who are the so called new fans they want to hook. With Marvel getting a head start on DC and being all the rage rebooting Superman after SR was never going to be easy. Talking of excuses, that's what I'm seeing now, from Enrique too. What I said about people losing interest or passion for these kinds of films happens, it's human nature and given the large number of people who seem a bit fed up with Superman in general I think that makes it a harder sell. But I'm basically getting excuses for why BB didn't make more than MOS. You're very glass half empty type of person when it comes to MOS, you say Nolan's name was there to make extra money (which is true), but at the same time not prepared to admit Snyders name being on it lessens that effect considerably (I in know a number of people away from the internet who weren't even willing to give it a go because it's a Snyder film), talking about false drama but praising Batman films that are bloated with that type of thing, the instance on pointing the finger at Snyder and Goyer but never Nolan. We obviously don't see eye to eye on it and never will, but just remember Enrique's taking the piss,so when you see something negative about MOS you don't always have to rush in to agree with it because quite often he'll be talking bollocks. But thinking back to initial reactions when this film was just going into production and one or two other comments I can't help but feel there's a deeper hatred of Snyder that's fueling some of this too, I mean it shouldnt be hard to admit that its harder to sell MOS now than it was BB then, yet here we are debating it. Even in the other thread when I made it clear Superman didn;t throw Zod through buildings, rather than admit that was bullshit you moved it on to 'oh but what about in Smallville' when Faoro went through iHop. just sayin He's not as popular by that hasn't stopped other heroes films from taking off. Most people didn't have fuckin clue who most of these marvel characters were 20 years ago. Now even B rate ones make serious bank. Characters have gone out of style and had great films bounce them back. Bonds been there a few times. Superman wasn't as popular in the 70s. He was old hat and outdated. But he bounced back. A great piece of work can MAKE a character popular again. The unpopular excuse only goes so far and plays so long before you have to look at certain people and say they didn't quite get the job done |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 20:10:26 GMT -5
And you were talking about paying attention I've cited the films problems but you were probably too busy posting nonsense to notice it. I won't brush off opinions, but when people make bollocks up i'll definitely do my best to back them into a corner until they're either forced to admit defeat or try and deflect and move the discussion to something else. What bit do you disagree with Enrique? Logic and common sense would tell you that what I posted is true. You're basically talking like MOS is a flop because it wasn't an enormous hit. Iron Man 3 is the 3rd film in the series, to compare it to a reboot is just fucking retarded. A big drop in the box office isn't uncommon either, I thought you'd have known that, especially when it was going to have to compete with the popularity of Despicable me 2. The opening week it didn't really have any competition at all. Common sense says that helped it to get a big opening. It still made good money Enrique, you can't talk about it fizzing out as if it's a flop when it isn't. It's not quite in the upper tier of comic book films and had other films to compete with, that's the simple answer. If it's just a trolling exercise then you really want to get a grip of your life I'm hardly covering my ears either, if I was I wouldn't be calling you out on the bollocks you've been posting  |
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Post by EnriqueH on Jul 21, 2013 20:11:54 GMT -5
Yes, I was talking about paying attention. Let's see if you were:
Where, exactly, did I say it was a flop?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 20:12:51 GMT -5
I can't make it any clearer for you 'tallo. And you and me both know Superman isn't particularly popular now days, ESPECIALLY with the kids who are the so called new fans they want to hook. With Marvel getting a head start on DC and being all the rage rebooting Superman after SR was never going to be easy. Talking of excuses, that's what I'm seeing now, from Enrique too. What I said about people losing interest or passion for these kinds of films happens, it's human nature and given the large number of people who seem a bit fed up with Superman in general I think that makes it a harder sell. But I'm basically getting excuses for why BB didn't make more than MOS. You're very glass half empty type of person when it comes to MOS, you say Nolan's name was there to make extra money (which is true), but at the same time not prepared to admit Snyders name being on it lessens that effect considerably (I in know a number of people away from the internet who weren't even willing to give it a go because it's a Snyder film), talking about false drama but praising Batman films that are bloated with that type of thing, the instance on pointing the finger at Snyder and Goyer but never Nolan. We obviously don't see eye to eye on it and never will, but just remember Enrique's taking the piss,so when you see something negative about MOS you don't always have to rush in to agree with it because quite often he'll be talking bollocks. But thinking back to initial reactions when this film was just going into production and one or two other comments I can't help but feel there's a deeper hatred of Snyder that's fueling some of this too, I mean it shouldnt be hard to admit that its harder to sell MOS now than it was BB then, yet here we are debating it. Even in the other thread when I made it clear Superman didn;t throw Zod through buildings, rather than admit that was bullshit you moved it on to 'oh but what about in Smallville' when Faoro went through iHop. just sayin He's not as popular by that hasn't stopped other heroes films from taking off. Most people didn't have fuckin clue who most of these marvel characters were 20 years ago. Now even B rate ones make serious bank. Characters have gone out of style and had great films bounce them back. Bonds been there a few times. Superman wasn't as popular in the 70s. He was old hat and outdated. But he bounced back. A great piece of work can MAKE a character popular again. The unpopular excuse only goes so far and plays so long before you have to look at certain people and say they didn't quite get the job done But again tallo, STM was the first huge comic book film. For that reason alone it isn't even comparable, it's also a better film but thats beside the point, the fact it was the first of it's kind means it can't be compared to relaunching Superman now. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 20:14:39 GMT -5
Yes, I was talking about paying attention. Let's see if you were: Where, exactly, did I say it was a flop? You didn't, and I didn't say you did either, what was that about paying attention? I said you're talking as if it were a flop. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 20:32:05 GMT -5
He's not as popular by that hasn't stopped other heroes films from taking off. Most people didn't have fuckin clue who most of these marvel characters were 20 years ago. Now even B rate ones make serious bank. Characters have gone out of style and had great films bounce them back. Bonds been there a few times. Superman wasn't as popular in the 70s. He was old hat and outdated. But he bounced back. A great piece of work can MAKE a character popular again. The unpopular excuse only goes so far and plays so long before you have to look at certain people and say they didn't quite get the job done But again tallo, STM was the first huge comic book film. For that reason alone it isn't even comparable, it's also a better film but thats beside the point, the fact it was the first of it's kind means it can't be compared to relaunching Superman now. Sure it can since Superman was seen as passé and out of date back then too. And it's not like STM had ZERO completion. It's a comic book film but it was also seen as a fantasy/sci fi/ adventure film and those DID exist in the 70s. There have been times were there weren't a lot of films of this type and the ones that did come out still failed. STM could have easily flopped. Especially if it wasn't that good. Flash Gordon came out two years later and flopped. There wasn't a glut of comic films back then yet and it didn't matter. People just weren't interested because the flick didn't do a good enough job to bring people in. Sometimes that's the real answer. MOS was no flop but they kind of dropped the ball. If MOS had kicked monster ass creatively speaking and had something special to get people really excite it would have done better. |
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Post by EnriqueH on Jul 21, 2013 22:52:56 GMT -5
Yes, I was talking about paying attention. Let's see if you were: Where, exactly, did I say it was a flop? You didn't, and I didn't say you did either, what was that about paying attention? I said you're talking as if it were a flop. You're just not getting it. Although it has about $280 million domestically on a $225 million budget, I'm not saying it was a flop. What I am saying is that the boxoffice should've been higher, (i.e. a FUCKING 60% decrease in week 2!!!!!!!! hecko, motherfucker, that's a fucking HUGE decrease!!!!) 60% decreases don't happen if the word of mouth is good. In this case, it seems like word of mouth was that it was ok. It was a must-see picture that EVERYONE was talking about. The Monday after opening weekend was a TOTAL BUZZKILL. How do you go from must-see to nonchalant in the course of 4 or 5 days? Simple. The movie didnt live up to the anticipation. |
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Shane
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Post by Shane on Jul 22, 2013 0:31:07 GMT -5
Watch out Kris small man syndrome enrique will say something about your family next
i think he is starting to crack like that inability to crack that 2nd beer the little hobbit
yeah bitches wohooo
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Post by ChrisM on Jul 22, 2013 11:23:42 GMT -5
STM could have easily flopped. I think people forget how close it came to being a disaster. A lot of things working against it... but it also had some blind luck with the casting of Reeve, and a director who really had a passion and vision for the character. The tragedy, ironically, was saved for Superman II. Unlike STM it had ALL the intangibles working in its favor, including incredible momentum. SII could very well have become the Godfather II of comic book films had the producers not sabotaged things. Truly shortsighted. I don't look at the existing SII brando footage as anything other than raw unedited footage that was shot. Had Donner stayed, they may have reshot certain things and certainly would have had more creative freedom with the FX in post-production. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2013 11:25:32 GMT -5
When I take off in my dreams, I now do so as Superman does in MOS. Weird, but satisfying when I finally lift off.
Ah, lucid dreaming...
Sent from my SPH-D710 using proboards
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 22, 2013 11:45:05 GMT -5
When I take off in my dreams, I now do so as Superman does in MOS. Weird, but satisfying when I finally lift off. Ah, lucid dreaming... Sent from my SPH-D710 using proboards In my flying dreams it often involved levitated in place a lot. Straight up like a rocket, then hovering right there... MoS is the time I saw on film what I feel like dreaming. Otherwise the whole "laying down in the air" is typical. Remember the 90s story where eradicator possesed superman and he'd fly standing stright up and propelling forward with his arms at his sides? That was cool |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 26, 2013 16:40:26 GMT -5
So anyway, is it just me or was anyone else expecting flying effects to have improved in 30+ years, not look worse?
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Post by Jimbo on Jul 26, 2013 16:49:08 GMT -5
Visual effects as a whole have not improved much in the past 30 years. Just lazier and cookie-cutter.
Even the most complex CGI fest doesn't come close to the complexity and difficulty of the Battle of Endor in ROTJ.
Keep clicking that mouse, "artists". Oh look at you, you can manipulate pixels.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 26, 2013 17:19:52 GMT -5
The technology has improved but the artistry has disappeared. A lot of younger directors don't know how to use digital fx to properly tell the story that's playing out on screen. Since they can do ANYTHING (even if it doesn't look convincingly photo real when it should) why sit down and really think about it? That's what some of them are like anyway. And when they don't think about some shots they don't see them from different POVs creatively speaking. Sometimes LESS IS MORE. Thats a foreign concept today.
Watched a bit of Road Warrior last night and Miller was a damn genius. An artist. No cgi bit he knew how to use what he had for maximum creative and storytelling effect. The action was put together in a way to mean a lot. Cameron was the same way during his peak years.
If anything the technology has made a lot of directors lazy. There less ingenuity. They can just fall back on the old cgi airbag.
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