atp
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Post by atp on May 5, 2018 16:32:33 GMT -5
Yes, that whole Superman incarnation has flopped spectacularly. It was so avoidable too. How hard would it have been to leave the character alone?
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 17:40:32 GMT -5
But Snyder made it work. Warner Brothers "listening to the fans" is what ruined the sequels.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 17:52:06 GMT -5
Made it work how? Those movies may have lost money (meaning not enough fans went), they divided audiences, and got terrible reviews. Wonder Woman, the movie with the least Snyder influence, did the best. More people liked it, it made the most money, and it got the best reviews. The writings on the wall.
The movies may have worked for Snyder fans but they didn’t work for a lot of people that they needed to work for. Man of steel got outgrossed by a C list marvel character like dr Strange that most people never heard of even though it had Christopher Nolan’s name plastered all over it to bring people in.
The fact is that movie split people, and it wasn’t because of its “deep thought provoking storytelling” like the Snyderites would have us believe. As soon as it did something interesting it undercut it with something stupid that made no sense or was ridiculous. That’s not making it work IMO.
Even Krypton is bombing in the ratings right now so once again the architects of MOS are given a chance and dropping the ball.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 18:05:44 GMT -5
But Snyder made it work. Warner Brothers "listening to the fans" is what ruined the sequels. They were too reactionary. After SR didn’t work they should have taken their time and put together an great team of writers and a director and after they crafted something truly good turned them loose to make it. The reason MOS even went into production when it did was because of the lawsuit from the Siegel family at the time. WB Execs admitted under oath they had no plans for another Superman movie after SR. The courts told them they either had to get a film into production or potentially lose some rights if the case didn’t go their way. Just like they threw SR together (after failing for years) because they saw something else work they threw MOS together after another failure because they saw something else work. They did the same thing again! Instead of trying to recreate what Donner and Singer did they tried to recreate what Nolan and Snyder did. Problem is Superman isn’t Batman and Snyder isn’t Nolan...and Goyer sucks without a strong hand guiding him. Watchmen FLOPPED years before MOS so it wasn’t even the first time WB gave Snyder the keys to one of their DC cars. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 18:15:15 GMT -5
Made it work how? Those movies may have lost money (meaning not enough fans went), they divided audiences, and got terrible reviews. Wonder Woman, the movie with the least Snyder influence, did the best. More people liked it, it made the most money, and it got the best reviews. The writings on the wall. The movies may have worked for Snyder fans but they didn’t work for a lot of people that they needed to work for. Man of steel got outgrossed by a C list marvel character like dr Strange that most people never heard of even though it had Christopher Nolan’s name plastered all over it to bring people in. The fact is that movie split people, and it wasn’t because of its “deep thought provoking storytelling” like the Snyderites would have us believe. As soon as it did something interesting it undercut it with something stupid that made no sense or was ridiculous. That’s not making it work IMO. Even Krypton is bombing in the ratings right now so once again the architects of MOS are given a chance and dropping the ball. What makes you believe Batman V Superman or Man of Steel lost money? The films work because they're some of the most gorgeous and interesting superhero films released. What makes you believe Snyder didn't have influence on Wonder Woman? news.avclub.com/surprise-zack-snyder-had-a-hand-in-writing-wonder-woma-1798249251 Regarding Krypton, I guess who really cares if that bombs? Just make a Superman show if you want to make a Superman show. It was bad enough when it was about Superman, but as a kid! Then a show about Batman, but as a kid! Now we're going back a few generations? blargh. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 18:19:12 GMT -5
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 18:24:36 GMT -5
Made it work how? Those movies may have lost money (meaning not enough fans went), they divided audiences, and got terrible reviews. Wonder Woman, the movie with the least Snyder influence, did the best. More people liked it, it made the most money, and it got the best reviews. The writings on the wall. The movies may have worked for Snyder fans but they didn’t work for a lot of people that they needed to work for. Man of steel got outgrossed by a C list marvel character like dr Strange that most people never heard of even though it had Christopher Nolan’s name plastered all over it to bring people in. The fact is that movie split people, and it wasn’t because of its “deep thought provoking storytelling” like the Snyderites would have us believe. As soon as it did something interesting it undercut it with something stupid that made no sense or was ridiculous. That’s not making it work IMO. Even Krypton is bombing in the ratings right now so once again the architects of MOS are given a chance and dropping the ball. What makes you believe Batman V Superman or Man of Steel lost money? The films work because they're some of the most gorgeous and interesting superhero films released. What makes you believe Snyder didn't have influence on Wonder Woman? news.avclub.com/surprise-zack-snyder-had-a-hand-in-writing-wonder-woma-1798249251 Regarding Krypton, I guess who really cares if that bombs? Just make a Superman show if you want to make a Superman show. It was bad enough when it was about Superman, but as a kid! Then a show about Batman, but as a kid! Now we're going back a few generations? blargh. Because YOU yourself said it cost 300 million dollars. MOS cost over 220 million. Add marketing to that and that’s a film that probably lost money. The reason they made the changes you complained about is because MOS didn’t make enough. That’s why we didn’t get MOS 2. People at WB themselves said they expected BvS to crack a billion. Fact. Didn’t even come close. A lot was riding on that movie. WB wouldn’t give a crap what “fans” thought of these films had made a lot of money. Plans changed because profits weren’t looking good. In your opinion they’re gorgeous and interesting. In other people’s opinions they’re drab cgi bloated overindulgent unfocused nonsense. Opinions are like @ssholes. There have been far better looking superhero films shot imo. On a technical level there are things done in Snyders films that make zero sense. And if the films were so gorgeous more people would have showed up to just look at how brilliant they are visually. Avatar is a sh!t film but people turned out big time to see how impressive it was visually. If MOS and BVS were as impressive as you say visually people would have turned out far more for them. Imo they’re expensive versions of a kid learning how to use an Instagram filter for the first time. Snyder relies on the same tired predictable visual crutches of filters and tinting and low color grading on the most predictable and uncreative ways. He’s a poor mans Michael bay. Imo. Jenkins and her writers rewrote Snyder. He contributed to the story not the script. The changes and influences she wanted made the film better. Some of the stuff they said about Wonder Woman also directly contradicted Snyder...like saying Diana would never turn her back on mankind even though she did in BvS. Krypton bombing is another referendum on the audience accepting Snyders Superman. It’s stayed heavily influenced by MOS. If there are as many people that loved it as you say that would be more than enough to make up a stronger audiences. |
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 18:35:23 GMT -5
Because it’s SUPERMAN. On name value alone people are going to buy it even if it’s not very good because it’s superman or they’ve never seen it in the first place and are curious. Physical media sales for everything have dropped over time (meaning a blu ray that was first sold in 2013 is going to do better than one sold in 2016) People waited to see MOS and didn’t bother with the theaters while more people went out to see strange at the theater. Home video means less and less so box office matters more than ever. Finally do those sales figures account for total discs sold from time of release until now or is it just for a limited widow of time like one year? If not of course MOS is gonna sell more than Dr Strange because MOS has been out for five years. Strange has only been out for two. That’s an unfair comparison. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 18:53:55 GMT -5
What makes you believe Batman V Superman or Man of Steel lost money? The films work because they're some of the most gorgeous and interesting superhero films released. What makes you believe Snyder didn't have influence on Wonder Woman? news.avclub.com/surprise-zack-snyder-had-a-hand-in-writing-wonder-woma-1798249251 Regarding Krypton, I guess who really cares if that bombs? Just make a Superman show if you want to make a Superman show. It was bad enough when it was about Superman, but as a kid! Then a show about Batman, but as a kid! Now we're going back a few generations? blargh. Because YOU yourself said it cost 300 million dollars. MOS cost over 220 million. Add marketing to that and that’s a film that probably lost money. The reason they made the changes you complained about is because MOS didn’t make enough. That’s why we didn’t get MOS 2. People at WB themselves said they expected BvS to crack a billion. Fact. Didn’t even come close. A lot was riding on that movie. WB wouldn’t give a crap what “fans” thought of these films had made a lot of money. Plans changed because profits weren’t looking good. In your opinion they’re gorgeous and interesting. In other people’s opinions they’re drab cgi bloated overindulgent unfocused nonsense. Opinions are like @ssholes. There have been far better looking superhero films shot imo. On a technical level there are things done in Snyders films that make zero sense. And if the films were so gorgeous more people would have showed up to just look at how brilliant they are visually. Avatar is a sh!t film but people turned out big time to see how impressive it was visually. If MOS and BVS were as impressive as you say visually people would have turned out far more for them. Imo they’re expensive versions of a kid learning how to use an Instagram filter for the first time. Snyder relies on the same tired predictable visual crutches of filters and tinting and low color grading on the most predictable and uncreative ways. He’s a poor mans Michael bay. Imo. Jenkins and her writers rewrote Snyder. He contributed to the story not the script. The changes and influences she wanted made the film better. Some of the stuff they said about Wonder Woman also directly contradicted Snyder...like saying Diana would never turn her back on mankind even though she did in BvS. Krypton bombing is another referendum on the audience accepting Snyders Superman. It’s stayed heavily influenced by MOS. If there are as many people that loved it as you say that would be more than enough to make up a stronger audiences. Sorry, I said what now? Is this quoting a conversation from months ago or something, because in all honesty, I don't commit that much memory to old message board posts. You are guessing that it lost money, but that doesn't make it a fact. Can you name those better looking superhero films? Some of those shots in "Kansas" in Superman The Movie are beautiful. Past that, what do we have? Avatar doesn't look that good, but had some good tech behind it. I don't think that many people care about cinematography in all honesty, but I appreciate it. I think you might assume when I say "looks gorgeous" that I'm talking about special effects, but I consider the whole package - framing of shots included. "If there are as many people that loved it as you say that would be more than enough to make up a stronger audiences." - Where did I ever say this? Seriously, stop making stuff up. It's weird. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 19:00:52 GMT -5
Finally do those sales figures account for total discs sold from time of release until now or is it just for a limited widow of time like one year? If not of course MOS is gonna sell more than Dr Strange because MOS has been out for five years. Strange has only been out for two. That’s an unfair comparison. I'm afraid I couldn't tell you. I am not affiliated with the website. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 19:02:04 GMT -5
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 19:16:46 GMT -5
Sorry, I said what now? Is this quoting a conversation from months ago or something, because in all honesty, I don't commit that much memory to old message board posts. You are guessing that it lost money, but that doesn't make it a fact. I remember it because you did yourself in on that topic and it was hilarious...and I have a decent memory. Not that difficult. Simple math makes it a fact. If the movie cost so much to make and so much to market and then it doesn’t make that back then yeah there’s a good chance it lost money. If it didn’t they wouldn’t have fired Snyder and forced him to make changes before that. Businesses don’t change things if they’re making money. Anything that doesn’t rely on lazy gimmicks or uncreative framing. Go watch some superhero movies besides Snyder’s. Snyder goes for the low hanging fruit and rehashing what other films did doesn’t make your film a masterpiece. Did I say special effects. Stop putting words in my mouth or assuming what i said. I’m talking about everything. People went to avatar for the entire visual experience. That’s what it was sold as. If Snyder’s films were as good as you say as a whole package the same would have happened for those too. Clearly the total package wasn’t there for a lot of people. You said they did well. You said they worked. Usually when films make money and work people have to show up. Do you think money comes out of thin air? I think you’re thinking of yourself bud. I’m talking about facts. Fact is they fired Snyder for something. You say he made it all work. He made it work for YOU but that doesn’t mean it worked for enough people. LOTS of people think these movies are garbage. Do you think these people don’t exists? You can look all over and people criticize his movies. It’s not a small group. That usually doesn’t happen for what most people consider great films. If he made it all work they never would have fired him but you seem see into some alternative universe. Big companies don’t change their plans for a small amount of people complaining they change things because they aren’t making money and want to make money. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 19:18:34 GMT -5
Finally do those sales figures account for total discs sold from time of release until now or is it just for a limited widow of time like one year? If not of course MOS is gonna sell more than Dr Strange because MOS has been out for five years. Strange has only been out for two. That’s an unfair comparison. I'm afraid I couldn't tell you. I am not affiliated with the website. If you don’t know why are you using it as some example? LMFAO! Yeah a movie with a three year head start in sales is gonna sell more than one that just came out two years ago. Your point? |
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 19:21:22 GMT -5
So...you’re impressed a movie about the three most iconic superheroes of all time meeting for the first time EVER in live action...outsold a third string marvel character that most people didn’t even know existed. Good for you? Like I said before BvS should be an idiot proof concept. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 19:42:07 GMT -5
Anything that doesn’t rely on lazy gimmicks or uncreative framing. Go watch some superhero movies besides Snyder’s. Snyder goes for the low hanging fruit and rehashing what other films did doesn’t make your film a masterpiece. That's not really an answer. "You said they did well. You said they worked." I said the latter, certainly. Man of Steel, without a doubt, is the film Zack Snyder wanted to make. His vision was successfully committed to film. I'm down with his vision. Financially, they made a lot of money. Definitely not as much as Warner Brothers would have liked. And I'm not disputing "people" didn't like the film. I don't believe I said otherwise. Yes, I'm pretty well aware my taste in film trends away from crowd-pleasing films. " If you don’t know why are you using it as some example? LMFAO! Yeah a movie with a three year head start in sales is gonna sell more than one that just came out two years ago. Your point?" Batman V Superman came out the same year as Dr Strange and outsold it on video. I don't understand your use of "LMFAO" when you're using conjecture and guesses at the financials. If you're going to talk about the financials, sources can help. Do studios not profit from video sales? Product placement? Merchandise? Did Warner Bros license Superman for this ad for free? www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48IkFF5BhM Do you think Turkish Airlines subsidized part of the budget in Batman V. Superman? I'll congratulate Marvel/Disney on their success with Dr. Strange if you think it would help, it's been fascinating to watch people get invested in characters outside the mainstream these past 10 years. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 19:44:40 GMT -5
So...you’re impressed a movie about the three most iconic superheroes of all time meeting for the first time EVER in live action...outsold a third string marvel character that most people didn’t even know existed. Good for you? Like I said before BvS should be an idiot proof concept. Where did I say I was impressed? |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 19:48:36 GMT -5
Why are you making this personal, anyways?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 20:07:24 GMT -5
That’s not really an answer. Sure it is. It might not be exactly what you’re looking for but if not too bad. Even if I give you ten examples you’ve got your mind made up. Thats not much of an answer since it doesn’t mean a film worked. A film “works” based on execution and response. I think you mean he made the film he wanted to make. That doesn’t mean it “worked.” Maybe for you it worked but beyond that it’s up for debate. And if it’s that controversial it didn’t really work. We’re talking about more than just you but it’s broad mainstream success. Even you’ve talked about everything from audience response to the financials so this isn’t limited to the individual. FACT is WB panicked after MOS and BVS. You don’t see studios doing that when their films really “work” LOL. Nice try at a dig. What makes you think MOS wasn’t trying to be a crowd pleaser? Even if it isn’t plenty of non crowd pleasing films have been far more successful in various areas. Being a crowd pleaser is irrelevant. It’s a question of execution and a lot of people think the film was poorly executed on many levels. The “crowd pleasing” thing is such a lame fallback excuse Snyder fans use. Dark knight wasn’t a crowd pleaser if we are using Snyder’s films as examples. Neither was Logan. But those films were far better received and made bigger profits and got better reviews. “Crowd pleasing” is an excuse. Just like the excuse Snyder had that he made BvS “for the fans” when it got ripped apart. Big box office doesn’t equal making money. If you operate at a loss you don’t make money. They may have made money on ancillary sources but when you’ve got to use that it means your films have failed at the box office. WB was in a mad dash to save this entire franchise. That wouldn’t have happened if they’d made a tidy profit. That’s not good business. [/quote]Batman V Superman came out the same year as Dr Strange and outsold it on video. I don't understand your use of "LMFAO" when you're using conjecture and guesses at the financials. If you're going to talk about the financials, sources can help. Do studios not profit from video sales? Product placement? Merchandise? Did Warner Bros license Superman for this ad for free? www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48IkFF5BhM Do you think Turkish Airlines subsidized part of the budget in Batman V. Superman? I'll congratulate Marvel/Disney on their success with Dr. Strange if you think it would help, it's been fascinating to watch people get invested in characters outside the mainstream these past 10 years. [/quote] LOL! Seems I touched a nerve. You began comparing MOS to Dr strange then added BvS later. Stop trying to move the goal post. You said yourself you didn’t know the details so why even bring it up? And yes I admitted BvS made more than doctor strange. Once again I ask...your point? What are you going on about? ALL movies make money from brand promotion and video sales. But it only comes up when people need to say Snyder’s films made money. Problem is it doesn’t mean as much the more you spend. When people have to lean in that it just tells me they’re trying to make up for the fact that their films failed financially when it comes to their primary source of profit. |
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 20:08:30 GMT -5
Why are you making this personal, anyways? I ain’t. Seems you are if you feel so defensive. Why are you so worried about getting the last word and being smug about the issue? You keep bringing up this “crowd pleasing” thing like that’s relevant to the discussion. Why? Plenty of films aren’t crowd pleasers. Yet you always say “well Snyder’s films aren’t crowd pleasers” Is that some excuse for why they didn’t make as much money because if so that’s meaningless. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 20:11:39 GMT -5
So...you’re impressed a movie about the three most iconic superheroes of all time meeting for the first time EVER in live action...outsold a third string marvel character that most people didn’t even know existed. Good for you? Like I said before BvS should be an idiot proof concept. Where did I say I was impressed? Because youre posting BvS financials trying to prove something that I already admitted was true? You did it for MOS then when you couldn’t answer you do it again for BvS. Why? Whats it supposed to prove? Yes the three biggest superheroes of all time in a first time ever event film sold more than the movie with the one lone c list marvel heroes. And? I’m trying to figure out what’s the point because I never said Dr. Strange made more than BvS. I said it made more than mos. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 20:19:18 GMT -5
Why are you making this personal, anyways? I ain’t. Seems you are. Why are you so worried about getting the last word and being smug about the issue? Look, I don't want a fight with you. I don't want to call you or anyone names. And yes, you've touched a nerve. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 20:24:10 GMT -5
I'm sorry if I hurt you calling films crowd-pleasing, I was not using it as a pejorative, but as its literal definition - films liked by a lot of people.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 20:27:52 GMT -5
I ain’t. Seems you are. Why are you so worried about getting the last word and being smug about the issue? Look, I don't want a fight with you. I don't want to call you or anyone names. And yes, you've touched a nerve. Clearly because you you’ve really gone at it when someone disagrees with you trying to prove...something? Yeah. You like his movies. I never said you didn’t. Never said you couldn’t. I don’t wanting to fight either...but you always seem to try to prove something otherwise when other people start talking about these movies. It’s just weird I touched a nerve in you criticizing some other guys movies. You put “fans” in quotation marks like that’s supposed to mean something else. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 20:33:04 GMT -5
I'm sorry if I hurt you calling films crowd-pleasing, I was not using it as a pejorative, but as its literal definition - films liked by a lot of people. Lol. You didn’t hurt me, bud. Crowd pleasing has nothing to do with the issue though. These films being crowd pleasers or not has no bearing on the discussion. Beyond that though some people would say they were meant to be crowd pleasers. BvS and mos are special effects punch up blockbusters. Don’t see how those aren’t crowd pleasers. They aren’t merchant ivory. They’re popcorn films made to bring in big audiences. Crowd pleasers. The problem is Snyder’s films were designed as crowd pleasers but failed. You don’t spend that much money on movies trying to bring in a niche audiences. So if MOS and BvS failed at their purpose...they failed. Pretty cut and dry. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 20:34:51 GMT -5
Look, I don't want a fight with you. I don't want to call you or anyone names. And yes, you've touched a nerve. Clearly because you you’ve really gone at it when someone disagrees with you trying to prove...something? Yeah. You like his movies. I never said you didn’t. Never said you couldn’t. I don’t wanting to fight either...but you always seem to try to prove something otherwise when other people start talking about these movies. It’s just weird I touched a nerve in you criticizing some other guys movies. You put “fans” in quotation marks like that’s supposed to mean something else. Yeah, I meant something by putting "fans" in quotations. I'm not one of the "fans" clamoring for the change. The end result, Justice League, was a film that appealed to an even narrower audience than its predecessors. "Clearly because you you’ve really gone at it when someone disagrees with you trying to prove...something?" - Can you earnestly say that this does not at all apply to your posts in this thread? I posted like two sentences and got two paragraph long replies from you. |
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