Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Apr 19, 2018 9:20:42 GMT -5
I think it was good to use Catwoman since she was so much a part of the knightfall story. That’s right out of the comic. It was sticking talia and Catwoman in one movie that might have been too much. I don’t think it needed the Gordons since again that’s also out of the comic where his family split up. It’s not unbelievable. For a story so stuffed it needed to be stripped down and the it was a great way to show how much the big lie at the end of TDK cost Gordon personally.
Venom could have worked in raimis films but not with all the other stuff it had to do too.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 20, 2018 0:50:41 GMT -5
I think it was good to use Catwoman since she was so much a part of the knightfall story. That’s right out of the comic. It was sticking talia and Catwoman in one movie that might have been too much. I don’t think it needed the Gordons since again that’s also out of the comic where his family split up. It’s not unbelievable. For a story so stuffed it needed to be stripped down and the it was a great way to show how much the big lie at the end of TDK cost Gordon personally. Venom could have worked in raimis films but not with all the other stuff it had to do too. While it may have been believable for the Gordons not to be there, I still think it needed the touchstones now and then for relatable supporting characters to help the audience care more. In that, I felt Burton's Batman Returns was more successful in having the audience feel more for all the main characters, including the Pengiun. Also, I thought it was better in showing why both Bruce and Selina really belonged to one another. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Apr 20, 2018 16:35:15 GMT -5
You won’t get any argument from me there. Keaton and Pfieffer had better chemistry and Returns did a better job developing a relashionship. That film had a more focused story with Catwoman penguin and Shrek all representing a side of Batman.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 22, 2018 21:38:46 GMT -5
You won’t get any argument from me there. Keaton and Pfieffer had better chemistry and Returns did a better job developing a relashionship. That film had a more focused story with Catwoman penguin and Shrek all representing a side of Batman. It's unfortunate that Goyer didn't release the original script (or treatment) for what he had in mind for TDKR- before Catwoman was pushed in and before Ledger's death. Would have been interesting to look at. Would Joker have been the instigator of everything, rather than Bane? Would the villains have been mainly Joker and Talia? If so, perhaps it wouldn't have felt so overstuffed. I have a sense the Robin bits would have stayed the same as we saw, but a lot of it might have played much better. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Apr 23, 2018 19:57:09 GMT -5
You won’t get any argument from me there. Keaton and Pfieffer had better chemistry and Returns did a better job developing a relashionship. That film had a more focused story with Catwoman penguin and Shrek all representing a side of Batman. It's unfortunate that Goyer didn't release the original script (or treatment) for what he had in mind for TDKR- before Catwoman was pushed in and before Ledger's death. Would have been interesting to look at. Would Joker have been the instigator of everything, rather than Bane? Would the villains have been mainly Joker and Talia? If so, perhaps it wouldn't have felt so overstuffed. I have a sense the Robin bits would have stayed the same as we saw, but a lot of it might have played much better. I think joker would have cameoed during the Arkham prison break out. Or maybe been the judge during the kangaroo court sequences. bane breaking all the cons out was fairly faithful to the comics. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2018 2:39:38 GMT -5
It's unfortunate that Goyer didn't release the original script (or treatment) for what he had in mind for TDKR- before Catwoman was pushed in and before Ledger's death. Would have been interesting to look at. Would Joker have been the instigator of everything, rather than Bane? Would the villains have been mainly Joker and Talia? If so, perhaps it wouldn't have felt so overstuffed. I have a sense the Robin bits would have stayed the same as we saw, but a lot of it might have played much better. I think joker would have cameoed during the Arkham prison break out. Or maybe been the judge during the kangaroo court sequences. bane breaking all the cons out was fairly faithful to the comics. If he was going to be just a cameo, I think I would have been disappointed. But- there's actually so much good material in the Batman comics that could be drawn from, that ending it at three films always felt like a waste to me. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Apr 24, 2018 18:34:10 GMT -5
I just can’t seem them doing joker as a main bad guy again after dark knight. The novelizations idea sounds like the best way to have used him.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2018 23:51:08 GMT -5
I just can’t seem them doing joker as a main bad guy again after dark knight. The novelizations idea sounds like the best way to have used him. Nolan never seemed interested in using the whole Rogue's gallery (which is a pity, as Batman's Rogues' Gallery is arguably the best) - so if he was going to want to wrap up everything by the third movie and not use all the great elements of the Batman comic, then I could have seen him re-using Joker to be the main baddie and do a rough adaptation of Dark Knight Returns, with Batman close to killing Joker for the closing act. In any case- on so many levels, TDKR just felt like a gigantic failure creatively to me. If I knew how bad it was going to be, I would much rather another director came in, and extended the series with Bale. Speaking of which, I really would rather Bale came back then recasting again with a new face. Batman can be older. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 12, 2018 13:30:45 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 12, 2018 21:16:45 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing this MEtallo! This looks on the surface to be closer to the comics than the original Death of Superman- but I'm not crazy about the look of the character designs & I think the choice to make each of these standalones end up with one not feeling as much emotional investment at the end. I usually rushed to the store to pick up the newest DC animation dvd- but not so much in years anymore. The last one I picked up was the Teen Titans one, but that was because of being able to see and enjoy it with a big crowd at Wondercon. (Would have been nice to have had that audience track- it was a great crowd). I think I'd much rather there be less animated films, but with higher quality in general- but I guess the format and the budgets will stay as they are until some film does remarkably well to encourage making them bigger. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 12, 2018 23:42:06 GMT -5
It looks cheap with a capital C. Yeah it looks more faithful story wise but it looks inferior to Superman Doomsday in every other way.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 13, 2018 0:35:12 GMT -5
It looks cheap with a capital C. Yeah it looks more faithful story wise but it looks inferior to Superman Doomsday in every other way. I think I'd prefer having the Justice League Unlimited or Brave and Bold back, to these features.... (and/or the motion comics on certain books) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 18:51:50 GMT -5
It looks cheap with a capital C. Yeah it looks more faithful story wise but it looks inferior to Superman Doomsday in every other way. I think I'd prefer having the Justice League Unlimited or Brave and Bold back, to these features.... (and/or the motion comics on certain books) Yes. I watched The Death of Superman, by the way. It's not terrible. It exists. It has the death of Superman. The best moments crib beats from BvS' Doomsday fight. I don't know if there's really anything of value to get out of it. Give me an animated "Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow?" instead please. Thanks. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 20, 2018 19:51:04 GMT -5
The best moments crib beats from BvS' Doomsday fight. Like what? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 19:54:20 GMT -5
The best moments crib beats from BvS' Doomsday fight. Like what? Superman flying Doomsday nearly out of orbit, only to come rocketing down and causing a huge crater. There were a few other shots where Superman was punching Doomsday as he did in MOS with Zod from a similar POV. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 20, 2018 20:03:01 GMT -5
Superman flying Doomsday nearly out of orbit, only to come rocketing down and causing a huge crater. There were a few other shots where Superman was punching Doomsday as he did in MOS with Zod from a similar POV. They teased that particular bit in the comic in 1992 and actually DID it in the Superman Doomsday animated movie in 2007 so no that’s not cribbed from BVS  The animated movie took it from the comic and Snyder took it from both. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 20:06:03 GMT -5
Flying Doomsday into space? I admit it's probably been nearly 20 years since I've read it, and barely remember Superman Doomsday. The execution was very similar to the Snyder films in this though.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 20, 2018 20:13:30 GMT -5
Lois Lane’s recording: “...Superman grabbed the monster...rocketing him away from Metropolis towards the vaccum of space.”Even has the big impact crater. They did this movie first and are remaking it. The animated movie took it from the comic and Snyder took it from both. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 20:21:35 GMT -5
Well, prepare to see it for a fourth time!
I really don't get why the latest one was made. It has less Luthor homoerotica. The central framing is Clark's love for Lois, though nothing interesting was done with it other than a date at the Ace O Clubs. Because who could ever hate on Bibbo?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 20, 2018 20:29:25 GMT -5
They did it to tie into the 25 anniversary of the event to milk even more money out of it and because lots of people didn’t like Superman Doomsday. I guess they wanted to take a better more comic book faithful crack at it. That’s why the justice league is involved too. Unfortunately this new movie sounds worse than the first one.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 20:35:48 GMT -5
They did it to tie into the 25 anniversary of the event to milk even more money out of it and because lots of people didn’t like Superman Doomsday. I guess they wanted to take a better more comic book faithful crack at it. That’s why the justice league is involved too. Unfortunately this new movie sounds worse than the first one. There's nothing offensive about this take though, I wouldn't call it worse. It just sort of exists. The sort of thing you watch once and don't really remember 20 minutes later. And then you think about all the times the DC animated universe did a thing better. Like the funeral scene from this episode is better than anything you'll find here. I remember a few cringey things in Superman Doomsday. Emo toyman. Kevin Smith showing up. Lex Luthor asking "Who's your daddy?" and the evil black-suit Superman clone. The rest is a blur. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 20, 2018 20:57:02 GMT -5
They did it to tie into the 25 anniversary of the event to milk even more money out of it and because lots of people didn’t like Superman Doomsday. I guess they wanted to take a better more comic book faithful crack at it. That’s why the justice league is involved too. Unfortunately this new movie sounds worse than the first one. There's nothing offensive about this take though, I wouldn't call it worse. It just sort of exists. The sort of thing you watch once and don't really remember 20 minutes later. And then you think about all the times the DC animated universe did a thing better. Like the funeral scene from this episode is better than anything you'll find here. I remember a few cringey things in Superman Doomsday. Emo toyman. Kevin Smith showing up. Lex Luthor asking "Who's your daddy?" and the evil black-suit Superman clone. The rest is a blur. The animation in all the clips I’ve watched is clearly worse. You can tell their budgets have been getting slashed for years. This doesn’t even look as good as Dark Knight Returns. Toyman and Smith were in jokes at Superman Lives with Burton’s love of emo or gothic characters and Smiths inclusion explains itself. They were finally making a movie of the story after Burton’s high profile version fell apart. I think they were trying to show Luthors almost insane romantic obsession with Superman which isn’t completely new to the character but they pushed it pretty far. Still not as cringy as granny’s peach tea put jolly ranchers in a guys mouth Luthor. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 21:03:05 GMT -5
Yeah, the animation is pretty cheap. They call it Metropolis, but all the streets are abandoned. I wish I could get around my city as efficiently as they do in this cartoon.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 20, 2018 21:26:20 GMT -5
Exactly. Same problem was in Killing Joke. But more than that the actual animation itself isn’t as fluid and the models look more flat. Like they’ve relied much more on cheap computer compositing or animation. I’m not expecting old school cel animation but WB has done better than this. The work they were doing even eight nine or ten years ago puts these recent efforts to shame. Fight choreography is worse, camera movement is worse, and even the backgrounds look worse.
A lot of that is because they’ve lost a lot of talented people behind the scenes over the years. Once you notice what their best movies were and who was responsible for what it’s easy to see what happened beside the smaller budgets.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 23, 2018 19:09:57 GMT -5
Exactly. Same problem was in Killing Joke. But more than that the actual animation itself isn’t as fluid and the models look more flat. Like they’ve relied much more on cheap computer compositing or animation. I’m not expecting old school cel animation but WB has done better than this. The work they were doing even eight nine or ten years ago puts these recent efforts to shame. Fight choreography is worse, camera movement is worse, and even the backgrounds look worse. A lot of that is because they’ve lost a lot of talented people behind the scenes over the years. Once you notice what their best movies were and who was responsible for what it’s easy to see what happened beside the smaller budgets. Here's a question I'll pose: if budgets keep shrinking, would you prefer the 'motion comics' adaptations over being 'full' animation? For my two cents, I loved the Watchmen motion comics (except for them just using one actor's voice).... I would have prefered motion comics for "All Star Superman", "Batman: Year One", "Killing Joke", and the "Superman vs. Brainiac" stories as the art was so good in them, it would have been nice to see those in motion versus the 'full' but simplified animation. |
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