Death of Superman / Reign of the Supermen animated films

[Metallo]

I'm already disappointed in this. I thought this second try after Superman Doomsday was going to be a more faithful and direct adaptation of the death of Superman comic book story.

This movie is set in the new 52 styled Justice league war continuity and uses that style. Was hoping for a better cast too. There have been better actors in these roles and with the exception of Jason O’Mara I can take or leave the War universe regulars. I don’t get why they’re so obsessed with keeping this continuity going after DC Rebirth. It’s not relevant anymore.

[booshman]

I half expected this. Very disappointing given how faithful the Dark Knight Returns adaptation was. I get updating some of the supporting JL members, since younger viewers might have no connection to the characters in the original, but updating to this weaker continuity is a bad move.

[Metallo]

Yeah you’re right. After they did the exact same thing with Teen Titans Judas Contract (adapting an older story to fit into their new War/52 style and continuity with different characters) it shouldn’t be surprising but I figured with the story as big as it is and them splitting it into two parts they’d give it the same treatment as Dark Knight Returns.

Even Killing Joke was a stand alone adaptation of the comic. I kind of wonder if they’re doing death of Superman this way because they think it will sell better. They have more faith in Batman so they don’t try to cram all his adaptations based on older works into this animated shared universe.

This and the preview have thoroughly lowered my expectations for this two parter. F*ck.

[Deleted]

It's a shame they can't put money into some of these films, it's always jarring how cheap the shading looks and how empty the cities look. 

Also no Bloodwynd, no sale. 

[crazy_asian_man]

Bruce Timm commented in San Francisco that his bosses were always happy to get a new Batman animated feature (due to sales) versus almost any other product.

I guess pitching faithful adaptations of older material might be a tough sell--- maybe easier to sell to his superiors if saying it would also incoporate newer versions of characters.... unfortunately.

Doesn't give much hope for my hope of an animated SII using Reeve's likeness and Mank's script....

[Metallo]

I’ve read that too. Batman always sells or at least sells best so he gets stand alone features. Everything else has to fall under either the JL banner or the Batman banner. It’s why Flashpoint had the Justice League plastered all over it even though it’s primarily a Flash story or why justice league dark had Batman boldly displayed on the cover and the JL heavily involved in the story. The animated has taken a real hit too but all this is because the old stuff didn’t sell.

Wonder Woman and green lantern first flight were good and looked much better than the current movies but they didn’t sell so unfortunately we won’t be seeing things like that again.

[crazy_asian_man]

Mar 29, 2018 10:03:12 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I’ve read that too. Batman always sells or at least sells best so he gets stand alone features. Everything else has to fall under either the JL banner or the Batman banner. It’s why Flashpoint had the Justice League plastered all over it even though it’s primarily a Flash story or why justice league dark had Batman boldly displayed on the cover and the JL heavily involved in the story. The animated has taken a real hit too but all this is because the old stuff didn’t sell.

Wonder Woman and green lantern first flight were good and looked much better than the current movies but they didn’t sell so unfortunately we won’t be seeing things like that again.

The most fun I think I've had with the Bruce Timm DC verse were in the series, more than the feature films.

"Justice League Unlimited" and "Brave and the Bold" in particular. After than, I think part two of "The Dark Knight Returns" (which I've been told LOST some money- go figure).

I will say, though, in person- Bruce Timm is hilarious in panels. Very candid, but also very funny guy.

[Metallo]

People are seeing these things. Seems like lots saw Under The Red Hood and Flashpoint Paradox. A lot of them just aren’t paying for them. They complain when they look cheap but then don’t pay for them even when they were good so the movies just get their budgets slashed more and more. It’s kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. If you payed and think they suck I’m right there with you but the ones who wonder why the budget has dropped when they illegally download these things have no room to talk.

I see the movies and shows as different things. Timm hasn’t been very involved with the tv shows for a while. Seems like those have been mostly James Tucker’s thing. The movies have been slowly dropping in quality for years. There have been a few welcome surprises but I think Timms another old creator who is either phoning it in and just taking a check or is creatively spent. I liked Gods and Monsters but Batman and Harley Quinn was kinda lame imo.

[crazy_asian_man]

Mar 29, 2018 21:52:25 GMT -5 Metallo said:

People are seeing these things. Seems like lots saw Under The Red Hood and Flashpoint Paradox. A lot of them just aren’t paying for them. They complain when they look cheap but then don’t pay for them even when they were good so the movies just get their budgets slashed more and more. It’s kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. If you payed and think they suck I’m right there with you but the ones who wonder why the budget has dropped when they illegally download these things have no room to talk.

I see the movies and shows as different things. Timm hasn’t been very involved with the tv shows for a while. Seems like those have been mostly James Tucker’s thing. The movies have been slowly dropping in quality for years. There have been a few welcome surprises but I think Timms another old creator who is either phoning it in and just taking a check or is creatively spent. I liked Gods and Monsters but Batman and Harley Quinn was kinda lame imo.

Exactly. I think it's a machine at this point- Much like how Paramount after awhile felt that the Star Trek movies only brought in 'x' amount of dollars, then started lowering budgets--- I think the same must be true for these 'straight to dvd' animated features.

The problem to me is that the movies don't really build on one another nor are they very 'special' imo, outside of the excellent "Dark Knight Returns Part 2" for the features.

The shows and movies are different things. I don't mind paying for a series, but when a movie is close to the same price as a season, then I certainly want more than what I've been getting for them. Animation should make things cheaper to really expand the visual universe, but- generally- they don't.

Oh well...

[Metallo]

Or the 70s planet of the apes films. I noticed WB animation is pushing a lot more of these as R rated and I think that’s to try to get some of the older fans who have quit buying these things back buy trying to entice them with more mature content.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 6, 2018 19:24:25 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Or the 70s planet of the apes films. I noticed WB animation is pushing a lot more of these as R rated and I think that’s to try to get some of the older fans who have quit buying these things back buy trying to entice them with more mature content.

I probably would be buying more of these films if the overall visuals were stronger or more interesting... and/or if the stories were more successful in trying to be deeper than the comic source in many cases.

I guess I should give WB animation more credit for trying to flesh out "The Killing Joke"- but the result was a disaster on every level.

Whenever I do have the urge to watch an animated DC item- often I find myself going to an episode of "JLU" or "Brave and Bold" before any of the features, (Except maybe New Frontier).

[Metallo]

They’re drawing on crappy source material (new 52) for newer films and they’ve lost some of their most talented people. I liked Lauren Montgomery’s work and wonder why they didn’t try to keep her. Dwayne mcduffie was one of their best writers and he passed away. The talents just not there like it used to be on the creative end. I honestly think Timms either just drawing a check at this point or he’s lost his magic touch. Heck maybe they’ve been given too much freedom. Some of the R rated films actually seem to be their worst ones.

I think the two Batman 66 animated films were as good as they were because James Tucker loves that show and did his best to make the animated films live up to them. It’s a shame West is gone because I’d gladly watch another one.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 7, 2018 9:45:48 GMT -5 Metallo said:

They’re drawing on crappy source material (new 52) for newer films and they’ve lost some of their most talented people. I liked Lauren Montgomery’s work and wonder why they didn’t try to keep her. Dwayne mcduffie was one of their best writers and he passed away. The talents just not there like it used to be on the creative end. I honestly think Timms either just drawing a check at this point or he’s lost his magic touch. Heck maybe they’ve been given too much freedom. Some of the R rated films actually seem to be their worst ones.

I think the two Batman 66 animated films were as good as they were because James Tucker loves that show and did his best to make the animated films live up to them. It’s a shame West is gone because I’d gladly watch another one.

Very true.
I wonder... would WB/DC consider recasting but still try to keep the same flavor, or just consider it blasphemy to continue the Batman 66 without West?
(I enjoyed both Batman 66 animated films but think that they could have gone even more extreme, considering it is/was animation)

[Metallo]

I’m sure they’d considered it since they recast all the other actors who have passed but them actually doing it? It depends on how fans would react. West was THE star so that’s different from replacing Romero or Meredith or even Gorshin. If they had continued with West still alive I have no doubt they would have replaced Yvonne Craig too. I think they might feel that West and Ward are the only two that are irreplaceable since they were the regular stars. They even reunited for the Filmation cartoon in the 70s and Filmation replaced everyone else even though most everyone else was still alive back then.

If they do continue on they’d probably float the idea of a recast first. Ten years from now when west’s death isn’t so fresh I could see them doing it.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 9, 2018 13:57:32 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I’m sure they’d considered it since they recast all the other actors who have passed but them actually doing it? It depends on how fans would react. West was THE star so that’s different from replacing Romero or Meredith or even Gorshin. If they had continued with West still alive I have no doubt they would have replaced Yvonne Craig too. I think they might feel that West and Ward are the only two that are irreplaceable since they were the regular stars. They even reunited for the Filmation cartoon in the 70s and Filmation replaced everyone else even though most everyone else was still alive back then.

If they do continue on they’d probably float the idea of a recast first. Ten years from now when west’s death isn’t so fresh I could see them doing it.

Again, good points.

I know I've said it a million times (probably enough to make someone vomit) but why on earth doesn't WB do SII using the Mankiewicz script, if they know that there's a nostalgia market out there?

But then again.... Batman seems to always get an animated green light. Anything else- not so much.

[Metallo]

I’d love to see his Batman script get the animation treatment. Like you said Batman sells so it wouldn’t be a huge risk for them.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 11, 2018 22:08:45 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I’d love to see his Batman script get the animation treatment. Like you said Batman sells so it wouldn’t be a huge risk for them.

That would be cool- I don't remember all of it- but the part that I remember that sticks out in a great way was the Robin portion in the last act.

While I loved much of what Nolan did with Batman-

If I knew how Nolan was going to do TDKR, I would have rather another director took over and have kept the Robin story closer to the comics. Batman Forever was by far not perfect, but the circus part with Robin's origin I thought was very well done.

[Metallo]

Nolan’s take on Robin or a character inspired by robin reminds me a lot of what burton was going to do with a kid growing up in an orphanage and a different take on the robin name. Both seemed to be more Jason Todd than Dick Grayson.

I think a lot of people were disappointed because TDKRises went in such a different direction from what they were expecting. I certainly didn’t expect what we got exactly.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 15, 2018 11:03:27 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Nolan’s take on Robin or a character inspired by robin reminds me a lot of what burton was going to do with a kid growing up in an orphanage and a different take on the robin name. Both seemed to be more Jason Todd than vagina Grayson.

I think a lot of people were disappointed because TDKRises went in such a different direction from what they were expecting. I certainly didn’t expect what we got exactly.

To me, it was extremely unsatisfying.

The balance for 'realism' and 'faithfulness' to the source I feel hit the sweet spot in TDK.

TDKR flew too far from the source material - which, sometimes I'm ok with, but... - beyond that, it didn't make me care about the characters (removing Alfred and Gordon's family didn't help in that regard)- and I actually found a lot of it BORING and implausible for that universe. (Catwoman is Batman's equal fighting on the streets? That's just one thing I found hard to buy...)

[Metallo]

Yeah I wasn’t that impressed with Catwoman being that good either. She wasn’t Batman’s equal since she needed a gun to get out of some spots and avoided conflict a lot more than he did but she’s a theif not someone who’s gone through a lot of training. But then that mistake starts with frank Miller and year one. I’ve always seen catwoman as being a lot like Amanda from highlander. She uses her wits and other assets to get her out of trouble cause she’s not a fighter.

TDKRises was very faithful in some ways but that wasn’t the big problem. The movie was unfocused and tried to do too much.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 15, 2018 20:35:48 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Yeah I wasn’t that impressed with Catwoman being that good either. She wasn’t Batman’s equal since she needed a gun to get out of some spots and avoided conflict a lot more than he did but she’s a theif not someone who’s gone through a lot of training. But then that mistake starts with frank Miller and year one. I’ve always seen catwoman as being a lot like Amanda from highlander. She uses her wits and other assets to get her out of trouble cause she’s not a fighter.

TDKRises was very faithful in some ways but that wasn’t the big problem. The movie was unfocused and tried to do too much.

TDKR has a lot of parallels with Spiderman 3 in that-

It was too much story crammed into one, to a point that it's hard to have time to really connect enough to the characters or what's going on.

Also, imo Nolan's just too in love with what I call 'the twist' over characterization. With "the Prestige"- while I thought that was a much better movie, I still didn't feel all that engaged with the characters there, either.

Having Bruce fall for someone in his life after BB/TDK - especially after Rachel's death, should have been a big event, but it just zips by and we're asked to accept that- and many other things. I was fine if there was a twist (as there is/was) with Talia being Rha's daughter- but because of how the setup was executed, felt nothing at that point.

I really would have rather another director and writer had continued after TDK, after seeing how TDKR turned out.

[Metallo]

Trying to do too and wrap things up hurt that movie.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 17, 2018 15:25:13 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Trying to do too and wrap things up hurt that movie.

Such a pity for both Spiderman 3 and TDKR that they didn't just make those TWO films.

In Spiderman 3's case, that was on the table- It's a pity that Sam Raimi didn't totally put his foot down and just wrap up the original Spiderman/Harry Osbourne story the way it should have been, then introduce Sandman/Venom in the next (If they had to).

in TDKR's case, Catwoman was already a film in itself (how surprising that Tim Burton's Batman Returns seemed to be less crowded and the superior film), but you're right- jamming everything else in was just a disaster.

[Metallo]

Imo TDKRises could have remained one film they just needed to cut some stuff out. It didn’t really NEED to try to use anything from No Mans Land or really even use Talia Al Ghul. The film should have just focused on Bane, Catwoman, and some influence from Knightfall and Dark Knight Returns.

Spider-Man 3 should have been two movies. Harry’s story had to be resolved, Sandman was a good villian choice and I get wanting to do the black suit. It was just too much for one film. The symbiote story is a whole movie by itself.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 18, 2018 10:37:08 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Imo TDKRises could have remained one film they just needed to cut some stuff out. It didn’t really NEED to try to use anything from No Mans Land or really even use Talia Al Ghul. The film should have just focused on Bane, Catwoman, and some influence from Knightfall and Dark Knight Returns.

Spider-Man 3 should have been two movies. Harry’s story had to be resolved, Sandman was a good villian choice and I get wanting to do the black suit. It was just too much for one film. The symbiote story is a whole movie by itself.

I get that Nolan never was crazy about Catwoman- but was pressured by his brother to do so. Venom also wasn't Raimi's choice, but, again, was forced to do so.

Without those elements, maybe the rest could have been fleshed out better, but.... without Gordon's family or Alfred around for most of it, I felt it lacked a lot of its humanity in the film. If you think of how TDK would have functioned without them- it still could have worked, but you don't feel as much, I think.