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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 9, 2023 0:22:23 GMT -5
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Post by Kamdan on May 9, 2023 7:17:08 GMT -5
Tuned out with that misquoted “You will kneel before Zod!”
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 10, 2023 10:27:27 GMT -5
Tuned out with that misquoted “You will kneel before Zod!” I only just realized that when Zod shouts: "Come to me son of Jorel, kneel before Zod!" That it was a Lester insert shot. The give away is the Bing Crosby(ahem!) portrait behind him on the wall. goto 0:32: Donner's Daily Planet stuff had a different picture up(of either Crosby or somebody else ? - dunno) on that section of the wall. goto 1:53: Whilst I disagree with Bill Hunt's opinion of Superman II as a film.....I agree on his analysis regarding the quality of the picture on the new UHD. It looks amazing. Caps a Holic have now done side by side comparisons, and the extra clarity and depth to the image ,present on the UHD ,when compared with the decade old Blu ray, is like night and day. Obviously the old VHSs,Laserdiscs and DVDs did not stand a chance either. The superior color gamut too, which can only be seen on a DCI -P3 certified 4K flat panel or 4K projector(and not on a standard PC or laptop), also helps to elevate the quality of the film as whole. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 11, 2023 1:19:51 GMT -5
At first glance- I would think it was definitely Donner- as it's also in the Thau cut.... but.... then again, Thau also included some Lester shots- The difference in pictures on the wall might not be the same area- hence, a different picture- but.... if it is the same wall and it's Lester- why is the continuity SO bad if that's the case? (It is possible, but your comment does have me scratching my head a bit)- The tone is the same- the screaming by Zod seems much like how he was screaming in STM's trial under Donner..... but then again the composition isn't a larger closeup like the other shots under Donner- but.... will check the script draft that had the Donner stuff already shot indicated on the rewrite. You could be right, but want to look into it more myself-  |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 11, 2023 3:08:38 GMT -5
Hi CAM
"The kneel before Zod" insert shot has to be Lester.
If you see this clip from the theatrical when Perry tells Clark about the Paris terror threat, you'll notice the same Crosby portrait up on the wall that's behind Zod later on when he shouts the famous line:
Goto 00.0 and pause:
Good point about the continuity being a bit jarring.
What's interesting is that there is a trophy underneath said portrait in Donner's stuff......and Lester went to all the trouble of putting a similar(or maybe the same?) trophy under that Crosby portrait!
Too be fair it's so quick that if one blinks, you'll miss it.
These movies were made in the quasi pre home video era(or at least before home video became popular).
Nobody in the cinema would have picked up on it ways back then.
Heck, I've only just noticed it after nearly 40 years of repeadedly watching this movie!
On edit:
Just noticed that there is what appears to be a light switch underneath Donner's portrait, wheras said lightswitch is missing completely in Lester's version.
Goto 1:31:
So it's definitely Lester.
Would be curious to see Donner's original take for this line now, given it's significance!
Having said that, the other Lester insert of Lois saying:
"Superman!"(when supes arrives on flag pole) is ,IMHO, superior to Donner's original recital from Kidder of the same line(as seen in the Donner cut).
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 11, 2023 10:38:37 GMT -5
The horrible wig Lester put on Margot for the reshoots and inserts is a killer in the dp/metro battle even decades later…. Takes me out of the movie in those shots. A lot else might be forgiven, but … ugh. (Unnecessarily) Adding Leueen doesn’t seem to be a fan favorite for the metro battle either. at least Lester didn’t put fart gags in this sequence.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 11, 2023 13:53:01 GMT -5
The horrible wig Lester put on Margot for the reshoots and inserts is a killer in the dp/metro battle even decades later…. Takes me out of the movie in those shots. A lot else might be forgiven, but … ugh. (Unnecessarily) Adding Leueen doesn’t seem to be a fan favorite for the metro battle either. at least Lester didn’t put fart gags in this sequence. I am not a fan of the wig either, but I am a fan of her better performance , which I think is ultimately far more important. Also ,there is that extreme close up of Margot's face as she stands next to the globe(another item which is also missing in the Donner footage - although this time, understandibly so), showing Australia, where I believe she actually looks quite beautiful. And her performance,IMHO, is top notch: "yeah....better than anybody". But anyways.....the 2 times that Zod delivers the pop culture line in the flick, are from both directors: 1)At the White House(Donner) "Now, kneel before Zod" 2)At The Daily Planet(Lester) "Come to me son of Jorel,kneel before Zod!" Great direction from Donner and Lester. Great performance by Stamp. Which makes a great final product, at least for me! Having gone through so many of both chap's respective works recently, the way I look at it is this way....Superman II was blessed to have the talents of 2 very gifted directors at the helm of one film. Don't think there are too many films that can say that, again IMHO. I am already aware of the counter argument but it's just another perspective. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 11, 2023 14:20:59 GMT -5
Actually at a Collider Q&A a couple of years back.....one of the fans noticed changing hairstyles during certain scenes in Infinity War and made a point of emphasizing it to the Russos- lol
goto 1:40:41
One of the scenes in question:
goto 1:45
Still took me a couple of views to spot it!
lol!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 12, 2023 0:42:32 GMT -5
I am not a fan of the wig either, but I am a fan of her better performance , which I think is ultimately far more important. Also ,there is that exstreme close up of Margot's face as she stands next to the globe(another item which is also missing in the Donner footage - although this time, understandibly so), showing Australia, where I believe she actually looks quite beautiful. And her performance,IMHO, is top notch: "yeah....better than anybody". But anyways.....the 2 times that Zod delivers the pop culture line in the flick, are from both directors: 1)At the White House(Donner) "Now, kneel before Zod" 2)At The Daily Planet(Lester) "Come to me son of Jorel,kneel before Zod!" Great direction from Donner and Lester. Great performance by Stamp. Which makes a great final product, at least for me! Having gone through so many of both chap's respective works recently, the way I look at it is this way....Superman II was blessed to have the talents of 2 very gifted directors at the helm of one film. Don't think there are too many films that can say that, again IMHO. I am already aware of the counter argument but it's just another perspective. I agree that Superman II was blessed to have one of the talents as director.  Seriously speaking- in reviewing the movie again.... the beginning of the theatrical had Lois with a similiar hairstyle to the DP/Metro battle bit shot by Donner, so I'm scratching my head as to why Lester had Kidder wear that wig, when they were able to do (mostly) the same hairstyle in other parts of the film he reshot. But then again- I hated the lack of attention in Superman III when Reeve's dyed hair looked more brown (his natural hair color) than the jet-black of the other films in spots. With so much money being spent on these films, I don't get the sloppiness with hair. I don't think I'm THAT much of a stickler with hair- but.... it's pretty distracting in these cases (to me). |
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Post by Kamdan on May 12, 2023 5:23:36 GMT -5
We can’t say Bill Cosby here?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 12, 2023 23:46:08 GMT -5
We can’t say Bill Cosby here? lol! Was it auto-correct? |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 13, 2023 9:29:47 GMT -5
We can’t say Bill Cosby here? lol! Was it auto-correct? hehe No that was me just being me! My spelling is not the best when it comes to names! I usually go over my posts and try to correct any initial grammar/spelling mistakes......but I still miss em' and that was one of em'! Even here in the UK, used to love that Cosby show back in the early 80s. |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 5, 2023 23:35:33 GMT -5
Was it a pic of Bill Cosby or OJ Simpson? I'm pretty sure it was the Juice.
Also you could tell the "Come to me, knell before Zod!" shot was Lester... it was way too OTP to be Donner.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 6, 2023 1:57:28 GMT -5
Was it a pic of Bill Cosby or OJ Simpson? I'm pretty sure it was the Juice. Also you could tell the "Come to me, knell before Zod!" shot was Lester... it was way too OTP to be Donner. Pretty sure it was Bill Cosby. The difference between the photo before and now I think isn't an error, but to show a time difference from the beginning of the movie to that point. I feel like it was shot by Donner- (Admittedly I could be wrong)- the contrast being from the quiet performance to that outburst. I felt it worked by doing it ONCE - whichever director shot it. (The extended tv bits with Zod going on and on by Lester felt a bit bland and the taunts a little childish.) When we see the look of the added Lester shots when the villains return to the DP- look at the difference of lighting, etc. - from the Donner-shot material. At the same time, I do admit- the "Would you care to step outside?" as a far stronger insert. But it was neat to see a bit of the Donner take on the scene. (I wish we could have seen the other alternate takes Donner had for much of the RDC.) |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 6, 2023 1:58:51 GMT -5
hehe No that was me just being me! My spelling is not the best when it comes to names! I usually go over my posts and try to correct any initial grammar/spelling mistakes......but I still miss em' and that was one of em'! Even here in the UK, used to love that Cosby show back in the early 80s. It was supposed to have been a quality written show, it's a pity that the psychotic behavior of one actor had to drag and taint that whole show after. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 6, 2023 4:24:45 GMT -5
Was it a pic of Bill Cosby or OJ Simpson? I'm pretty sure it was the Juice. Also you could tell the "Come to me, knell before Zod!" shot was Lester... it was way too OTP to be Donner. Pretty sure it was Bill Cosby. The difference between the photo before and now I think isn't an error, but to show a time difference from the beginning of the movie to that point. I feel like it was shot by Donner- (Admittedly I could be wrong)- the contrast being from the quiet performance to that outburst. I felt it worked by doing it ONCE - whichever director shot it. (The extended tv bits with Zod going on and on by Lester felt a bit bland and the taunts a little childish.) When we see the look of the added Lester shots when the villains return to the DP- look at the difference of lighting, etc. - from the Donner-shot material. At the same time, I do admit- the "Would you care to step outside?" as a far stronger insert. But it was neat to see a bit of the Donner take on the scene. (I wish we could have seen the other alternate takes Donner had for much of the RDC.) That insert of : "Kneel before me...." ....is definitely a Lester insert. It's a blink and you will miss it addition. But in every shot that is by Donner of Zod at the Daily Planet, there is the same portrait(of an unidentified individual- possibly Cosby?) behind Stamp, that was behind Clark(when confronted by Perry),in STM, and again behind Reeve and Kidder in the opening at the DP in Donner's SII. Goto 0:01, 0:21 and 0:29 in the video below: .....and you will notice the portrait that is common to both STM and Donner's SII shots. The shot at 0:21 in particular , when Zod looks up as he reacts to Supe's taunt("General"!),and the one 0:29, when he turns to Luthor, still has that STM portrait behind Stamp, which accentutates Donner's ownership. So there is no question that the "new" insert by Lester.......is Lester when Zod shouts the famous line. Of course, would be curious to see Donner's original take. Couple of possibilities: 1)Was shot by Donner but lost over the subsequent 26 years. 2)Was shot by Donner and not deemed good enough by Lester at the time,and subsequently, by Thau himself, 26 years later. 3)Was actually never shot by Donner at all, thereby forcing Lester to shoot it in 1979/80, and therefore inducing Thau to use it, 26 years later. I think that option 3 is very unlikely....leaving the other 2 as the best reasons why we have what we have. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 6, 2023 20:14:44 GMT -5
It would have been nice if Michael Thau did an exhaustive commentary on who was what and where- but, given the results and given his bit of defensiveness towards it... but, you make a good argument for it being Lester shot. But- it is in the script, if I'm not wrong- so bizzare that this wouldn't be shot by Donner- given it's a key line!
The VILLAINS are thunderstruck, rooted to the spot. LOIS
rises unbelievingly.
LOIS
Superman ...
LUTHOR
Thank God ...
(to Villains)
I mean ... get him !
SUPERMAN disappears, flying up and out of frame.
ZOD
(insane)
Come to me, Son of Jor-El! Kneel before
Zod!
The VILLAINS move as one, smashing through both the wall
and windows after him, completely demolishing the street
side of the room.
EXT. SKY - NIGHT
The VILLAINS and SUPERMAN manoeuver in the night sky like
wary fighter planes looking for an opening.
ZOD
(yelling)
Now, son of Jor-El! Submit, and swear
loyalty to Zod!
SUPERMAN
(yelling back)
Not tonight, you pitiful little crackpot.
Never!
The furious ZOD gestures NON forward with a sweep of his
arm.
Ideally, there would be a new/better editor and budget for deepfaking/restoring it the way it COULD be done- but.... only would happen with a fan cutter that WB doesn't have to pay and it would be unofficial (though the adding of a fan cut to an official German set to Dune has me scratching my head as to what is possible...)-
As is- I know I'm a broken record - but... at best, we get a blu ray of the extended SII cut that has the best edited Donner material, even if without the Brando stuff!
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Post by Kamdan on Jun 7, 2023 11:05:02 GMT -5
I, too, would be interested in inquiring what Donner’s take of “Kneel before Zod” was. It must have been in the pile of shots Thau had because he went to the trouble of adding a new Donner shot that shows Zod exiting the frame.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 7, 2023 14:29:34 GMT -5
I, too, would be interested in inquiring what Donner’s take of “Kneel before Zod” was. It must have been in the pile of shots Thau had because he went to the trouble of adding a new Donner shot that shows Zod exiting the frame. Ah, good catch with the extra shot of Zod exiting the frame, exclusive to the DC! Now we are getting into the pixel peeping weeds here! Goto 0:25 in the video below: ...you will notice that there is the reflection of Zod in the window that the camera is facing towards, so as to capture Supes on the flagpole(in fact , Supes begins to fly off said flag pole). It's a Donner shot ofcourse, but you can see Stamp open and close his mouth, where he must be saying some part of the famouse line! The problem is that the dialogue is from the theatrical version....so is not synchronised well with Stamp's lip movements. So as a hypothesis: Maybe the actual Donner shot was in Thau's possession, but did not synch very well with the audio from Lester's take. But why would that matter? Well, we all know that the on set audio that was recorded during Donner's(and Lester's) scenes in general, featuring the actor's unadultarated voices, was slightly meek sounding. So Stamp's utterance of that line without any alterations to his voice may not have had quite the impact either Donner or Thau were seeking in 2006, especially for such a key sequence. Hence the reason to keep Lester's take. On edit: Notice that in the theatrical,Lester had Stamp raise his arm to accentuate the "kneel before Zod" utterance, which adds extra malevolence to the character's demands. In Zod's reflection in the window in the Donner Cut, Stamp opens and closes his mouth but keeps his hands to his side. So it could have been a performance issue aswell, as to why Thau did not use Donner's take. Either way, would still like to see it. One for Jim Bowers to ask Thau, the next time they talk. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 8, 2023 1:58:48 GMT -5
I, too, would be interested in inquiring what Donner’s take of “Kneel before Zod” was. It must have been in the pile of shots Thau had because he went to the trouble of adding a new Donner shot that shows Zod exiting the frame. Ah, good catch with the extra shot of Zod exiting the frame, exclusive to the DC! Now we are getting into the pixel peeping weeds here! Goto 0:25 in the video below: ...you will notice that there is the reflection of Zod in the window that the camera is facing towards, so as to capture Supes on the flagpole(in fact , Supes begins to fly off said flag pole). It's a Donner shot ofcourse, but you can see Stamp open and close his mouth, where he must be saying some part of the famouse line! The problem is that the dialogue is from the theatrical version....so is not synchronised well with Stamp's lip movements. So as a hypothesis: Maybe the actual Donner shot was in Thau's possession, but did not synch very well with the audio from Lester's take. But why would that matter? Well, we all know that the on set audio that was recorded during Donner's(and Lester's) scenes in general, featuring the actor's unadultarated voices, was slightly meek sounding. So Stamp's utterance of that line without any alterations to his voice may not have had quite the impact either Donner or Thau were seeking in 2006, especially for such a key sequence. Hence the reason to keep Lester's take. On edit: Notice that in the theatrical,Lester had Stamp raise his arm to accentuate the "kneel before Zod" utterance, which adds extra malevolence to the character's demands. In Zod's reflection in the window in the Donner Cut, Stamp opens and closes his mouth but keeps his hands to his side. So it could have been a performance issue aswell, as to why Thau did not use Donner's take. Either way, would still like to see it. One for Jim Bowers to ask Thau, the next time they talk. This is certainly an interesting mystery for the group to chime in on! In thinking on all the arguments placed here for my nemesis Lester (kidding) on 'definitely shooting it'... hm... Counterarguments- #1: Remember the STM beginning when Zod is screaming at Jor-el under DOnner's direction? Same intensity. The flip between the quiet and the outbursts were also present in the trial scene. It certainly FEELS the same. #2: The angle of the camera is definitely different- but so were the alternate takes put in of Hackman in the FOS all shot by Donner. They weren't all great angles. The pictures behind Stamp are different- but the camera is pointed at a different direction- so it's not necessarily aimed at the same column and framed photo- (but will also check later on the wide angles)... if my hunch is right- that explains the different pics behind Stamp. Short theory: one camera is at a slight angle, resulting in a different part of the back wall (and a different photo) shown. #3: What if the first angle (closeup) by Donner didn't match continuity wise with the angle of Reeve on the flagpole? And this alternate angle- potentially by DOnner- was the best choice to match it? In any case, if performed multiple times (and could well have, given it's a key line)- it would be nice to be able to see the alternate take and have this mystery answered once and for all! |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jun 8, 2023 3:55:03 GMT -5
I think it's Lester's footage.
- Zod's hair is different. In this shot, his hair is slicked back and has more streaks in it
- His voice is also consistent with other Lester scenes
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 8, 2023 4:48:56 GMT -5
Love ya CAM.......
But it's definitely Lester!
There is a light switch under the portrait too, in Donner's version.
Said light switch is missing completely in Lester's shots.
That particular Cosby portrait is also exclusive to Lester's DP set up.
It's there plain as day ,when Clark confronts Perry about the Paris terrorists at the beginning of the theatrical.
That it would show up in an angle that Donner used just the once is impossible, when every other angle or shot at the DP that we know of that is definitevely Donner, features the other portrait of the unidentified individual.
Goto 20:39 in the video below:
There's the portrait that is unique to STM and Donner's scenes from SII again!
As for getting Stamp to shout in the manner of his initial outburst at Brando in STM......
There are plenty of Lester films which feature actors shouting angrily and doing it with conviction!
Petulia,How I Won The War,Robin & Marian,On The Way To The Forum,Cuba,The Knack,Royal Flash,Juggernaught,The Muskys,Butch and Sundance......to name but a few.
Getting convincing performances from actors,was a trait of Lester and Donner(whatever the tone), across the entire spectrum of their flicks, irrespective of whether said flicks were good or bad(invariably most are pretty darn good!).
Let's not forget that Lester was also on set(or at least part of the production crew) for a decent chunk of STM,including the shooting schedule in London at the Daily Planet in the summer of 77'.
Chances are that Lester noted Donner's work, close up.
Was Lester on set when Donner filmed the villains trashing the DP?
Unknown.
But he could have been.
Petrou notes on page 103 of "The Making Of " book ,that Lester kept his presense on stage "to a minimum".
Hence Lester's ability to exact a great performance from Stamp, when it came to his turn to shoot stuff in 1979.
In fact, in some ways, Donner's takes ironically would serve as rehearsals, for when Lester got his chance 2 years later, specifically for those scenes featuring inserts/reshoots.
It's an unsual scenario, but I think there is some validity to the hypothesis.
Kidder's line of when she exclaims "Superman!" when he arrives on the flagpole is probably the best example.
For whatever reason, Donner's take of Kidder lacked a sense of a dramatic reaction.
Lester noted it.
In his take....Kidder's face comes into frame.
Adds a bit of kinetisism to the shot.
Also, her reaction is much more visceral.
It's those little touches which amp up the tension.
For the record, I prefer Lester's pre- arrival of the villains at the DP reshoot:
"He shows up everytime a cat gets stuck in a tree"
As opposed to Donner's original:
"No no no....there's 3 of them...."
Before the DC was released in 2006, I always used to wonder what that pre arrival of the villains at the DP looked like under Donner.
At the time I was in pure Lester hate mode, and was convinced that Donner's versions/takes would be superior!
But was distinctly underwhelmed when I finally saw Donner's original shoot of that scene.
Made me appreciate the reshoots of Lester that much more.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 8, 2023 5:47:48 GMT -5
I have had to pick these off capedwonder: (but even if partially obscured, that portrait is unique to STM and Donner's SII stuff ......) Notice the light switch under the portrait:     This one has nothing to do with anything other than it's Gary Kurtz, who must have been on an Empire Strikes back scouting for production crew talent mission!  |
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Post by Kamdan on Jun 8, 2023 7:18:11 GMT -5
This sentiment is probably what drove Donner to resentment towards Lester. With his perfectionist attitude, he probably looked back at the work he completed for two and wanted to redo a large portion of it due to the rushed nature of the production. The 1931 Spanish version of Dracula had an advantage over the English version of looking at their rushes for the day and deciding to up them on a technical level.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 8, 2023 16:30:09 GMT -5
This sentiment is probably what drove Donner to resentment towards Lester. With his perfectionist attitude, he probably looked back at the work he completed for two and wanted to redo a large portion of it due to the rushed nature of the production. The 1931 Spanish version of Dracula had an advantage over the English version of looking at their rushes for the day and deciding to up them on a technical level. Yes, but it's also a miracle that Donner shot as much as he did of Part II given the time consuming process of setting everything up. Interesting that in the CapedWonder behind the scenes stills, the cameramen are covered in what appears to be a black quilt.....I am assuming that was done so as to obscure their own reflections in all the glass. There is no question in my mind that Donner would have reshot a decent chunk of what he had already lensed anyways. He even claims in the commentary that he would have called Brando back for some reshoots, had he been allowed to finish. You referenced the ability to see dailies quickly. Back in those days, you could sometimes be waiting for days before you actually got a chance to see what was shot on the day. Nowadays, ofcourse, directors can playback a take digitally , literally seconds after shooting it. So that reference I made earlier in the thread, about the Russos getting caught out by an astute fan who noticed Holland's hair inconsistencies from shot to shot in Infinity War......is less forgivable, given all the tech they have at their disposal. |
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