crown
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Post by crown on Apr 13, 2015 2:59:10 GMT -5
But Clark should have spun around really fast and turned into Superman right before kissing Lois because everyone knows only Superman should kiss Lois lol.
Also you could just end the scene with them kissing and Perry looking at them perplexed (taken from the world turn scene) like a fan did way back when if there's too much of a problem with the amnesia kiss.
Also does anyone think the new Donner footage ruined SII? There's so many edits out there I can't even enjoy SII anymore. Sometimes I wish we just had the Lester cut and the Donner footage remained a beautifully tragic dream that never was.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 13, 2015 4:36:29 GMT -5
I do think a lot of the new Donner footage "ruined" things. A lot of it has acting that is inferior to Lester's version.
Anyway, I just thought of a possible ending that keeps the great exchange between Lois and Clark, but avoids the memory kiss. It would end with Lois still knowing the truth.
Lois says "Just say that you love me".
When Clark takes off his glasses, the first thing he does is wipe the tears from her eyes.
You could cut from there (no kiss) to the footage of Clark from Superman 4, where he is standing by the window deep in thought.
Voiceover of Jor El "Your enemies will discover the only way to hurt you ... by hurting the people you care about"
Voiceover of Lara saying "If you intend to live with a mortal you must live as a mortal... you will become an ordinary man... you will feel like an ordinary man ... you can be hurt like an ordinary man."
Voiceover of Lois saying "I dont want a bodyguard I want the man I fell in love with."
Voiceover of Clark saying "I know. I wish he were here"
Its apparent then that Clark realises he has made the right choice.
Then, cut to the diner revenge scene.
End with the white house flag
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 13, 2015 11:02:05 GMT -5
But Clark should have spun around really fast and turned into Superman right before kissing Lois because everyone knows only Superman should kiss Lois lol. Also you could just end the scene with them kissing and Perry looking at them perplexed (taken from the world turn scene) like a fan did way back when if there's too much of a problem with the amnesia kiss. Also does anyone think the new Donner footage ruined SII? There's so many edits out there I can't even enjoy SII anymore. Sometimes I wish we just had the Lester cut and the Donner footage remained a beautifully tragic dream that never was.
I think "ruined" might be too strong a word-"altered" I think would be more acceptable.
During the years that Donner's unseen footage was in the vaults all we had to go on was Donner's and Mank's eulogies as to how great this footage was--this combined with our own inflated expectations as to how great this footage could be exacerbated the situation. It did not help that Donner raved about the Honey Moon Haven blank shots to trick Supe's scene (in a 1989 interview) as if it was genuinely completed. Of all the scenes-this was the one I personally wanted to see most(apart from some of the Brando stuff)-so I was bitterly disappointed when it turned out that he had in fact not got round to shooting it after all- and all we had were those darn screen tests. I think that every Lester pick up or insert shot that displaced Donner's was artistically correct. Stuff like Lois's reaction to Supes on the DP ledge when he arrives to challenge Zod or the replacement scene in the DP after Luthors says "Australia!".
This is actually a good example because the look on Lois's face as the camera pulls back from that zoomed in shot of the globe(focusing on Australia) is very soulful and pensive--you feel like she is pondering about if Supes has been successful in getting his powers back as well as a sense of regret that she can no longer be with him(that is what I think anyways).
Contrast that with Donner's Lois who abruptly retorts back to Jimmy and Perry "he will be here ok" as if it is no big deal. To be fair I think Donner would have re-shot some of this stuff back in 79' had he had the chance.
But Yeah-I think Lester deserves some credit for isolating some potentially artistically problematic footage and amending it accordingly to fit in with the mood or narrative of a particular scene.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 13, 2015 11:25:25 GMT -5
The execution was perfect. If you can get past rat-Lois it's a really beautiful scene. Especially the exchange "Lois I don't know what to say." "Well just say you love me." If we had had Donner's super-pretty Lois in that scene it woulda been THE BEST. -sigh- I also think that scene is beautiful. Better than any of Donners break up scenes. When Clark takes his glasses off, the transformation is amazing too. The acting is fine in the scene..... but I don't agree that it's better than any of Donner's breakup scenes, though. That's fine. I do like that Lester scene better with Verisimilitude's touches, though. He cuts right from the kiss, to an effect showing Lois' pov as the memories get erased with a perfect John Williams cue. THAT part is very moving.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 13, 2015 11:42:20 GMT -5
But Clark should have spun around really fast and turned into Superman right before kissing Lois because everyone knows only Superman should kiss Lois lol. Also you could just end the scene with them kissing and Perry looking at them perplexed (taken from the world turn scene) like a fan did way back when if there's too much of a problem with the amnesia kiss. Also does anyone think the new Donner footage ruined SII? There's so many edits out there I can't even enjoy SII anymore. Sometimes I wish we just had the Lester cut and the Donner footage remained a beautifully tragic dream that never was.
I think "ruined" might be too strong a word-"altered" I think would be more acceptable.
During the years that Donner's unseen footage was in the vaults all we had to go on was Donner's and Mank's eulogies as to how great this footage was--this combined with our own inflated expectations as to how great this footage could be exacerbated the situation. It did not help that Donner raved about the Honey Moon Haven blank shots to trick Supe's scene (in a 1989 interview) as if it was genuinely completed. Of all the scenes-this was the one I personally wanted to see most(apart from some of the Brando stuff)-so I was bitterly disappointed when it turned out that he had in fact not got round to shooting it after all- and all we had were those darn screen tests. I think that every Lester pick up or insert shot that displaced Donner's was artistically correct. Stuff like Lois's reaction to Supes on the DP ledge when he arrives to challenge Zod or the replacement scene in the DP after Luthors says "Australia!".
This is actually a good example because the look on Lois's face as the camera pulls back from that zoomed in shot of the globe(focusing on Australia) is very soulful and pensive--you feel like she is pondering about if Supes has been successful in getting his powers back as well as a sense of regret that she can no longer be with him(that is what I think anyways).
Contrast that with Donner's Lois who abruptly retorts back to Jimmy and Perry "he will be here ok" as if it is no big deal. To be fair I think Donner would have re-shot some of this stuff back in 79' had he had the chance.
But Yeah-I think Lester deserves some credit for isolating some potentially artistically problematic footage and amending it accordingly to fit in with the mood or narrative of a particular scene.
I think I'd give Lester more credit if he didn't change the script so drastically, (in a much weaker direction, making Lois unpleasant rather than perky and then just horribly in spots) when it wasn't necessary to. The Mank script was sitting right there, if they had to trim things for the budget, it could easily have been done without ruining what was already written. I'll admit that there were a couple of touches that I liked that Lester added that I think helped but more than not, I think he only hurt the production. As far as wishing that the RDC never happened..... honestly, while I wish there were more and that it was edited properly, at least I'm glad that I got to see many of the bits and pieces that I'd read about - versus never being able to have seen them. Things (even in rough form) I'm particularly glad I was able to see visualized: (Outside of the ABC cut) 1. The DP jump scenes performed- 2. The Jor-el/Supes depowering exchange 3. The tiny bits where Supes is kicked into the Statue of Liberty that Donner shot/ 4. The final confrontation in the FOS 5. To a degree, the repowering exchange (though the original script sells it much more powerfully) One thing that also bothers is Thau's mentioning that Donner in 2006 kept pushing him to get all the takes that were 'faster, faster'- which really made zero sense for the repowering scene in particular as is. Many of the alternate takes Thau also chose in other spots were horrible.... So, yeah... Lester imo ruined SII- but Thau may have ruined it just as much unfortunately with his choices. If nothing else, who knows? Maybe Selutron would have picked better alternate takes for many of the performances that we're not crazy about for the RDC. Personally, I think this is the case. Donner's done way too many films where the performances were rarely ever the problem. I also think Michael Thau's editing is what hurt the Donner cut more than anything else. If he was also hamstrung by Donner and Mank, that's one thing..... but all of Donner's footage was shot at the same time as the rest of STM. All the clunky stuff could easily have been the editing or incomplete shooting.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 13, 2015 14:31:29 GMT -5
I think "ruined" might be too strong a word-"altered" I think would be more acceptable.
During the years that Donner's unseen footage was in the vaults all we had to go on was Donner's and Mank's eulogies as to how great this footage was--this  combined with our own inflated expectations  as to how great this footage could be exacerbated the situation. It did not help that Donner raved about the Honey Moon Haven blank shots to trick Supe's  scene (in a 1989 interview) as if it was genuinely completed. Of all the scenes-this was the one I personally wanted to see most(apart from some of the Brando stuff)-so I was bitterly disappointed when it turned out that he had in fact not got round to shooting it after all- and all we had were those darn screen tests.  I think that every Lester pick up or insert shot that displaced Donner's was artistically correct. Stuff like Lois's reaction to Supes on the DP ledge when he arrives to challenge Zod or the replacement scene in the DP after Luthors says "Australia!".
This is actually a good example because the look on Lois's face as the camera pulls back from that zoomed in shot of the globe(focusing on Australia) is very soulful and pensive--you feel like she is pondering about if Supes has been successful in getting his powers back as well as a sense of regret that she can no longer be with him(that is what I think anyways).
Contrast that with Donner's Lois who abruptly retorts back to Jimmy and Perry "he will be here ok" as if it is no big deal. To be fair I think Donner would have re-shot some of this stuff back in 79' had he had the chance.
But Yeah-I think Lester deserves some credit for isolating some potentially artistically problematic footage and amending it accordingly to fit in with the mood or narrative of a particular scene.
I think I'd give Lester more credit if he didn't change the script so drastically, (in a much weaker direction, making Lois unpleasant rather than perky and then just horribly in spots) when it wasn't necessary to. The Mank script was sitting right there, if they had to trim things for the budget, it could easily have been done without ruining what was already written. I'll admit that there were a couple of touches that I liked that Lester added that I think helped but more than not, I think he only hurt the production. As far as wishing that the RDC never happened..... honestly, while I wish there were more and that it was edited properly, at least I'm glad that I got to see many of the bits and pieces that I'd read about - versus never being able to have seen them. Things (even in rough form) I'm particularly glad I was able to see visualized: (Outside of the ABC cut) 1. The DP jump scenes performed- 2. The Jor-el/Supes depowering exchange 3. The tiny bits where Supes is kicked into the Statue of Liberty that Donner shot/ 4. The final confrontation in the FOS 5. To a degree, the repowering exchange (though the original script sells it much more powerfully) One thing that also bothers is Thau's mentioning that Donner in 2006 kept pushing him to get all the takes that were 'faster, faster'- which really made zero sense for the repowering scene in particular as is. Many of the alternate takes Thau also chose in other spots were horrible.... So, yeah... Lester imo ruined SII- but Thau may have ruined it just as much unfortunately with his choices. If nothing else, who knows? Maybe Selutron would have picked better alternate takes for many of the performances that we're not crazy about for the RDC. Personally, I think this is the case. Donner's done way too many films where the performances were rarely ever the problem. I also think Michael Thau's editing is what hurt the Donner cut more than anything else. If he was also hamstrung by Donner and Mank, that's one thing..... but all of Donner's footage was shot at the same time as the rest of STM. All the clunky stuff could easily have been the editing or incomplete shooting. I still wish Mr Thau had created a CGI villains rule the world scene for the Donner Cut. Anyone else agree?
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 13, 2015 15:18:13 GMT -5
I actually did a villains rule the world scene in my fan cut.... used world destroying footage and epic trailer theme with Zod's speech. I also used music from gladiator during the repower scene which REALLY works well. Anyone interested in seeing it?
Also I respect Selutron but I'm happy his cut wasn't made... his ending alone would have ruined SII.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 13, 2015 15:22:40 GMT -5
I actually did a villains rule the world scene in my fan cut.... used world destroying footage and epic trailer theme with Zod's speech. I also used music from gladiator during the repower scene which REALLY works well. Anyone interested in seeing it? . Yes definitely. Can you load on youtube?
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 13, 2015 19:19:08 GMT -5
I have my whole cut load on final cut pro... I'll try to get a few clips uploaded to youtube and post links.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 13, 2015 20:08:08 GMT -5
Fan cuts are always awesome to see.
I would have been giantly surprised if his cut was officially sanctioned by WB--- but I would have loved ANYONE to recut SII and/or just let all the deleted Donner stuff be made available in high quality, at this point.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 14, 2015 6:59:05 GMT -5
@crazy_asian_man
You make good points about Kidder's performance as Lois although I find that under Lester, it is calibrated to fit with the narrative as told in theatrical SII-remember by this point in the story it is implied that Clark and Lois have known each other for a while(maybe a couple of years)-In STM she seemed quite dismissive of Clark which suited that particular narrative of having just met--hence her more "balsy" attitude to Clark(as told by Kidder herself) -by SII(according to Lester)on the other hand she seems to accept Clark for what he is (whilst still dishing out some advice(as in the squeezing Orange scene at the DP) but ultimately warming up to him--- "what are friends for"--- I thought this was quite touching.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 14, 2015 12:46:22 GMT -5
I never thought about this before, but Lesters two scenes in Lois' office really mirror each other in a very clever way.
In the first scene (orange squeezing), Lois in in control. In the second scene (break up), Clark is in control.
In the first scene, Lois consoles Clark by saying he has so much going for him. In the second, Clark consoles Lois by saying that some day she will meet someone.
In the first scene, Lois tells Clark she cares. In the second, Clark tells Lois he likes worrying about her.
In the first scene, Lois friendzones Clark. In the second, he friendzones her.
In the first scene, Lois accuses Clark of being jealous. In the second, she admits she is jealous.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 14, 2015 13:59:31 GMT -5
I never thought about this before, but Lesters two scenes in Lois' office really mirror each other in a very clever way. In the first scene (orange squeezing), Lois in in control. In the second scene (break up), Clark is in control. In the first scene, Lois consoles Clark by saying he has so much going for him. In the second, Clark consoles Lois by saying that some day she will meet someone. In the first scene, Lois tells Clark she cares. In the second, Clark tells Lois he likes worrying about her. In the first scene, Lois friendzones Clark. In the second, he friendzones her. In the first scene, Lois accuses Clark of being jealous. In the second, she admits she is jealous.
Wow- I never noticed this "mirroring" in 34 long years of this movie-very well spotted-I wonder whether it was intentionally scripted that way or if it is an unintended side product(of the script).
I always regarded that final DP scene in Lester's SII as a sort of release valve to deflate the audience for the preceding 2 hours of dramatic tension.
I said in a previous post that when I saw STM and SII back to back - that I did not want SII to end- that DP scene sticks in my mind in the sense that during that first viewing-I was expecting Zod to burst back through the DP walls and disrupt Lois's and Clarks discreet moment together--lol---hey- I was 7 years old-I did not quite get the concept that the movie really was coming to an end.
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 14, 2015 14:05:49 GMT -5
Woulda been funny if Zod bursted in the office Kool-Aid man style. Clark and Lois just stare at him blankly and Zod slowly backs away in shame.
Also did anyone assume that the DP magic kiss scene occurred at night time? I still see the scene today and picture it at night even thought Clark mentions it's 9AM. Probably because so many of the previous scenes were at night and we don't get an establishing day shot.
It's funny how a child's mind works though. When I first saw the SIII slapstick intro I thought it was awesome that I was seeing the streets of Metropolis after the Zod battle and had assumed that the road marker guy was fixing the street that was damaged after the battle.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 14, 2015 14:15:28 GMT -5
That final DP scene always stuck out for me as being very sad and a lot more real than the rest of the movie.
The dialogue is actually pretty adult and mature for a comic book movie.
I also loved Reeve's acting. In that scene, he was playing Superman wearing glasses, rather than his normal Clark.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 15, 2015 2:18:36 GMT -5
I never thought about this before, but Lesters two scenes in Lois' office really mirror each other in a very clever way. In the first scene (orange squeezing), Lois in in control. In the second scene (break up), Clark is in control. In the first scene, Lois consoles Clark by saying he has so much going for him. In the second, Clark consoles Lois by saying that some day she will meet someone. In the first scene, Lois tells Clark she cares. In the second, Clark tells Lois he likes worrying about her. In the first scene, Lois friendzones Clark. In the second, he friendzones her. In the first scene, Lois accuses Clark of being jealous. In the second, she admits she is jealous. Interesting to point out- but in judging Mank's script versus the Lester characterization (no suprise)- Lois isn't necessarily characterized 'wrong' from what was in the comics- but the emphasis on making her a complainer and demanding in Lester's version - over the more charming and spunky elements of Lois made me not really root for the love story versus STM.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 15, 2015 2:24:46 GMT -5
That final DP scene always stuck out for me as being very sad and a lot more real than the rest of the movie. Well, Lester's desire to make the Phantom Zone villains comedy schtick definitely made more of the rest feel real by comparison. ATP- I'm curious: which did you like better: the ending balcony scene or the Lester final DP scene?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 15, 2015 2:26:48 GMT -5
I do think a lot of the new Donner footage "ruined" things. A lot of it has acting that is inferior to Lester's version. Anyway, I just thought of a possible ending that keeps the great exchange between Lois and Clark, but avoids the memory kiss. It would end with Lois still knowing the truth. Lois says "Just say that you love me". When Clark takes off his glasses, the first thing he does is wipe the tears from her eyes. You could cut from there (no kiss) to the footage of Clark from Superman 4, where he is standing by the window deep in thought. Voiceover of Jor El "Your enemies will discover the only way to hurt you ... by hurting the people you care about" Voiceover of Lara saying "If you intend to live with a mortal you must live as a mortal... you will become an ordinary man... you will feel like an ordinary man ... you can be hurt like an ordinary man." Voiceover of Lois saying "I dont want a bodyguard I want the man I fell in love with." Voiceover of Clark saying "I know. I wish he were here" Its apparent then that Clark realises he has made the right choice. Then, cut to the diner revenge scene. End with the white house flag This is really interesting. I'm trying hard to envision if it's possible to composite with the different music background tracks, though. On the down side, though, it certainly puts a darker tone to Clark's diner revenge scene.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 15, 2015 6:54:47 GMT -5
That final DP scene always stuck out for me as being very sad and a lot more real than the rest of the movie. Well, Lester's desire to make the Phantom Zone villains comedy schtick definitely made more of the rest feel real by comparison. ATP- I'm curious: which did you like better: the ending balcony scene or the Lester final DP scene? The Lester DP version. It does admittedly look cheaper than the Donner balcony footage. But I definitely prefer the acting and the dialogue.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 15, 2015 7:07:40 GMT -5
The Lester final DP exchange between Clark and Lois is a combination of the Donner "just outside the fortress of solitude" + "the balcony" + "the DP after the world has been turned back" scenes.
I think Lester synthesised all the best elements of those 3 Donner scenes and condensed it down into a more emotionally resonant scene(albeit with a cheaper looking set).
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 15, 2015 7:15:28 GMT -5
Woulda been funny if Zod bursted in the office Kool-Aid man style. Clark and Lois just stare at him blankly and Zod slowly backs away in shame. Also did anyone assume that the DP magic kiss scene occurred at night time? I still see the scene today and picture it at night even thought Clark mentions it's 9AM. Probably because so many of the previous scenes were at night and we don't get an establishing day shot. It's funny how a child's mind works though. When I first saw the SIII slapstick intro I thought it was awesome that I was seeing the streets of Metropolis after the Zod battle and had assumed that the road marker guy was fixing the street that was damaged after the battle. Interesting how you conflated SIII's intro with SII's climax--I think you were doing a fan cut before there were fan cuts-lol
I think it is only the fact that Clark mentions it is 9am that sells that scene as taking place in the morning-otherwise it could be mistaken for having taken place at night.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 15, 2015 8:34:00 GMT -5
I do think a lot of the new Donner footage "ruined" things. A lot of it has acting that is inferior to Lester's version. Anyway, I just thought of a possible ending that keeps the great exchange between Lois and Clark, but avoids the memory kiss. It would end with Lois still knowing the truth. Lois says "Just say that you love me". When Clark takes off his glasses, the first thing he does is wipe the tears from her eyes. You could cut from there (no kiss) to the footage of Clark from Superman 4, where he is standing by the window deep in thought. Voiceover of Jor El "Your enemies will discover the only way to hurt you ... by hurting the people you care about" Voiceover of Lara saying "If you intend to live with a mortal you must live as a mortal... you will become an ordinary man... you will feel like an ordinary man ... you can be hurt like an ordinary man." Voiceover of Lois saying "I dont want a bodyguard I want the man I fell in love with." Voiceover of Clark saying "I know. I wish he were here" Its apparent then that Clark realises he has made the right choice. Then, cut to the diner revenge scene. End with the white house flag This is really interesting. I'm trying hard to envision if it's possible to composite with the different music background tracks, though. On the down side, though, it certainly puts a darker tone to Clark's diner revenge scene. I wish I knew enough about editing to have a go at creating this. Thinking some more, it might be better if we cut as soon as Lois says "Just say that you love me" It would definitely make the diner revenge scene a bit darker.
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 15, 2015 21:00:42 GMT -5
fan editing's easy as frack if you're just rearranging pre-cut footage instead of cobbling together raw dailies to make a scene from scratch which is what real editors do.
I'm trying to get my fan cut on youtube because I think you guys will like it the best.. although it's 6MB and youtube only let's me upload 2MB at a time. Trying to find out how to load in increments,
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 15, 2015 22:39:04 GMT -5
fan editing's easy as frack if you're just rearranging pre-cut footage instead of cobbling together raw dailies to make a scene from scratch which is what real editors do. I'm trying to get my fan cut on youtube because I think you guys will like it the best.. although it's 6MB and youtube only let's me upload 2MB at a time. Trying to find out how to load in increments, True about editing--- with today's tech, and the options available- it's so inexpensive and made so easy now that it's ridiculous. (I've worked with old editing software- and it's come a long way) After that, it's just levels of how far detailed one wants to get into and how smooth someone might want something to look...
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dugpa
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Post by dugpa on Apr 16, 2015 2:36:50 GMT -5
Wasn't expecting to see this any time soon, does this mean that any hopes of getting WB to do this officially have been dropped? I always wondered why Sel didn't go the fanedit route and just release it himself. I reckon we can see that with the amount of unavaiable footage/ alternate takes he would need to complete his idea, it's not really possible right now. Saying that I would like to see what he could pull off by using what we have access to right now. I think a good percentage of what he was trying to incorporate could be achieved. Here's a thought. In terms of unavailable footage, why not utilize shots of CR from other movies around that time such as Somewhere in Time? Especially for the close-ups of Supes looking sad? A little rotoscoping, coloring of the hair... Could very well work.
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