atp
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Post by atp on Apr 16, 2015 4:10:03 GMT -5
Wasn't expecting to see this any time soon, does this mean that any hopes of getting WB to do this officially have been dropped? I always wondered why Sel didn't go the fanedit route and just release it himself. I reckon we can see that with the amount of unavaiable footage/ alternate takes he would need to complete his idea, it's not really possible right now. Saying that I would like to see what he could pull off by using what we have access to right now. I think a good percentage of what he was trying to incorporate could be achieved. Here's a thought. In terms of unavailable footage, why not utilize shots of CR from other movies around that time such as Somewhere in Time? Especially for the close-ups of Supes looking sad? A little rotoscoping, coloring of the hair... Could very well work. Yes great idea. Somewhere in Time has plenty of suitable shots near the end (after CR finds the penny in his pocket)
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 16, 2015 13:01:41 GMT -5
he had superman vision in that scene to because he could instantaneously read the date on that penny he picked out.
Also I know this is pie in the sky thinking but is there a way we could take the magic kiss scene and use alternate takes of super pretty Donner Lois to composite over rat lois?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 16, 2015 13:30:05 GMT -5
Here's a thought. In terms of unavailable footage, why not utilize shots of CR from other movies around that time such as Somewhere in Time? Especially for the close-ups of Supes looking sad? A little rotoscoping, coloring of the hair... Could very well work. Yes great idea. Somewhere in Time has plenty of suitable shots near the end (after CR finds the penny in his pocket) It suprised me that Selutron's footage was so rough- he definitely could have used a still frame or (like he did with the 'Airport' and 'The Swarm' movie footage)- composite stuff temporarily from another flick for his presentation. Didn't look like there was THAT much he needed that would have necessitated a lot of money. On the flip side, he mentioned trying to get modelmakers (I assume) for the Metro battle scenes. What he have done with that may be the last 'mystery'.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 16, 2015 14:11:16 GMT -5
he had superman vision in that scene to because he could instantaneously read the date on that penny he picked out. Also I know this is pie in the sky thinking but is there a way we could take the magic kiss scene and use alternate takes of super pretty Donner Lois to composite over rat lois? When he first sees Elise in the photo, he tries using x ray vision (looking for the name)
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zuperman
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Post by zuperman on Apr 17, 2015 0:43:16 GMT -5
Salkinds were first and foremost businessmen. If Brando scenes and etc would've been better than sliced bread - they would've remained. Richard Lester did not decide everything for SII. If it was made the way it was it's because it worked best. And it does. One year or thirty years later is too late to remake the same movie with same actors - just to change tone. Fans want cgi, hidden footage from area 51 and I don't know what. Won't happen and if it did - prepare to be sorry. Just about ALL movies have alternate takes - that's because they do more than one take and use the best. The more money, the more time = the more takes. SII can be seen in 1001 different ways. A the end - the official Richard Lester cut will remain the best.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 17, 2015 2:16:32 GMT -5
Now that the 'cat' is out of the bag.... and the ending he was holding onto is finally released-
I do wonder if Selutron will just unveil the rest of what he had in mind to fanedit.org or whatnot.
Questions that I have that still remain:
1. What was he going to do with the bit previewed where the had the villains 'freeze breath' the army soldiers (the least effective part imo)- but had the tank and other soldiers walk up towards the villains & the Lincoln statue?
2. The Metro battle- how many changes would have been made?
Not too many questions left, but what the heck...... with this forum, almost everything thing has been talked out...
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Post by supes81 on Apr 17, 2015 21:49:13 GMT -5
@crazy_asian_man
You make good points about Kidder's performance as Lois although I find that under Lester, it is calibrated to fit with the narrative as told in theatrical SII-remember by this point in the story it is implied that Clark and Lois have known each other for a while(maybe a couple of years)-In STM she seemed quite dismissive of Clark which suited that particular narrative of having just met--hence her more "balsy" attitude to Clark(as told by Kidder herself) -by SII(according to Lester)on the other hand she seems to accept Clark for what he is (whilst still dishing out some advice(as in the squeezing Orange scene at the DP) but ultimately warming up to him--- "what are friends for"--- I thought this was quite touching.
Agreed. I think this gets forgotten quite a lot. In Donner's movie Lois and Clark/Superman barely know each other, so it makes sense that the interaction isn't as emotionally resonant. Lois is a lot more pragmatic about their break-up even though she is upset. I think Donner and Mank nailed it in terms of deepening the relationship through part 2, but keeping it somewhat light to reflect the newness of it all, Lester nailed it in his version as they had been in each others lives for years as opposed to months. That's why if you try to do a Donner cut and use the pink rug scene it doesn't match nor does the amnesia kiss scene. You have two characters in two different timelines. If Donner had left Lois knowing Supes identity and made a part 3, I am sure we would have seen a much more emotionally soulful relationship between Lois and Supes.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 18, 2015 1:09:28 GMT -5
supes81
You said it better than me--there are indeed 2 different timelines for 2 different narratives.
I think CAM is right to say Lois is more perky in STM-but that does fit with the spontaneity of having just met both Clark and Supes.
When Supes saves Lois in the Eiffel tower there is that quick look up from Lois(just before Supes says "mam I think this is your floor").
That Lois reaction under Lester matches the same spontaneity that you get from Lois in STM.
In fact she is so amazed she forgets about the bomb : "There is a b-b- bomb!!!!"
That moment got a great reaction/laughs when I saw Supes II in 1981(and again in 1982).
So I think Lester got that sense of urgency/spunkiness from Kidder--like when she shoves Loueen("the big one is just as strong as Superman!") out of the way in the Metropolis battle-- when it was needed--but he also managed to pull out those moments of contemplation(as when Lois is staring at the globe showing Australia-wondering if Supes will make it back ).
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 18, 2015 1:28:56 GMT -5
Good point about the timeline thing.
The Donner Cut seems to start the very next day after STM. The story about Luthors scheme was on the front page of the Daily Planet.
On the other hand, the Lester version does start at some indeterminate time. It does feel like it could be years after STM.
I never thought about it before, but this is probably why I prefer Lester's version of the love story.
In the Donner timeline, Superman is far too quick to give up his powers. If he still hardly knew Lois, why would he tell his father he loves her and immediately agree to become human?
To me, that kind of commitment only really makes sense in a timeline where they have indeed known each other for years.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 18, 2015 1:36:26 GMT -5
Salkinds were first and foremost businessmen. If Brando scenes and etc would've been better than sliced bread - they would've remained. Richard Lester did not decide everything for SII. If it was made the way it was it's because it worked best. And it does. One year or thirty years later is too late to remake the same movie with same actors - just to change tone. Fans want cgi, hidden footage from area 51 and I don't know what. Won't happen and if it did - prepare to be sorry. Just about ALL movies have alternate takes - that's because they do more than one take and use the best. The more money, the more time = the more takes. SII can be seen in 1001 different ways. A the end - the official Richard Lester cut will remain the best.
Gotta 100% agree with this.
When I first saw SupesII the emotional build up of when "beat up" Clark finds and picks up the green crystal in the FOS--and then that very quick cut away to NON staring at those ball bearings in the White House actually worked in the sense that I felt that we(as an audience) were not 100% sure if Supes had succeeded or not.
That was actually very clever editing.
Now I was only 7 at the time so maybe I was not clever or mature enough to comprehend that yeah Supes is gonna get his powers back!
Maybe an older person would have seen it differently at the time.
But I think that from the moment of that superb Reeve stare at the green crystal to the few minutes with Lex and the villains at the white house to the villains then arriving and trashing the DP the audience was held in a state of suspense(when and how and if Supes is coming back)---also the audience was getting well and truly riled up that the villains have been have been marching on un-opposed for the best part of an hour in the flick by this point--it is why people cheered and clapped when Supes flies onto the DP pole("general--would you care to step outside!")---basically audience relief that yes-he has got his powers back and he can finally take on these 3 seemingly unstoppable characters.
I think as a first time viewing experience-it worked perfectly--and in my opinion better than say when Tobey Maguire's Peter re-discovers his powers in Spidy 2 in 2004.--but then I was 30 when I saw that one ---had I seen Spidey 2 as a 7 year old maybe I would have interpreted it in the same manner as Supes II.
My opinion of course
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 18, 2015 2:15:35 GMT -5
Salkinds were first and foremost businessmen. If Brando scenes and etc would've been better than sliced bread - they would've remained. Richard Lester did not decide everything for SII. If it was made the way it was it's because it worked best. And it does. One year or thirty years later is too late to remake the same movie with same actors - just to change tone. Fans want cgi, hidden footage from area 51 and I don't know what. Won't happen and if it did - prepare to be sorry. Just about ALL movies have alternate takes - that's because they do more than one take and use the best. The more money, the more time = the more takes. SII can be seen in 1001 different ways. A the end - the official Richard Lester cut will remain the best.
Gotta 100% agree with this.
When I first saw SupesII the emotional build up of when "beat up" Clark finds and picks up the green crystal in the FOS--and then that very quick cut away to NON staring at those ball bearings in the White House actually worked in the sense that I felt that we(as an audience) were not 100% sure if Supes had succeeded or not.
That was actually very clever editing.
Now I was only 7 at the time so maybe I was not clever or mature enough to comprehend that yeah Supes is gonna get his powers back!
Maybe an older person would have seen it differently at the time.
But I think that from the moment of that superb Reeve stare at the green crystal to the few minutes with Lex and the villains at the white house to the villains then arriving and trashing the DP the audience was held in a state of suspense(when and how and if Supes is coming back)---also the audience was getting well and truly riled up that the villains have been have been marching on un-opposed for the best part of an hour in the flick by this point--it is why people cheered and clapped when Supes flies onto the DP pole("general--would you care to step outside!")---basically audience relief that yes-he has got his powers back and he can finally take on these 3 seemingly unstoppable characters.
I think as a first time viewing experience-it worked perfectly--and in my opinion better than say when Tobey Maguire's Peter re-discovers his powers in Spidy 2 in 2004.--but then I was 30 when I saw that one ---had I seen Spidey 2 as a 7 year old maybe I would have interpreted it in the same manner as Supes II.
My opinion of course
THIS However, I think that a properly acted edited and scored Brando repower scene would have helped the film immeasurably. The Salkinds (correctly) knew that because STM was a hit they didn't need Brando and they didn't need vagina. Unfortunately this was a major blow that the series never recovered from.. the SIII and SIV.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 18, 2015 3:22:27 GMT -5
I think the decision to suspend work on S2 and concentrate on getting STM ready for release is what hurt S2.
By making STM a standalone film, they introduced some "traps" that would mean Donner's S2 footage would need major changes.
If STM Donner had stayed after STM was released, I suspect he would have scrapped a lot of what he had already shot for S2 and reshot it.
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 18, 2015 6:48:46 GMT -5
What major changes would SII need? To have Brando visit Clark in his apartment to spin the world back? Clark sees Jor-El over Metropolis and says "uh jeez dad why didn't you restore my powers in the fortress if you could come back? Why did the green crystal stick and a "mysterious light" have to do it?
If a major change was needed then Superman defying his father in STM should have resulted in the explosion of the crystal bank which resulted in depression bty Superman being finally alone on earth and made the decision to become mortal an easier choice.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 18, 2015 9:01:55 GMT -5
I think the decision to suspend work on S2 and concentrate on getting STM ready for release is what hurt S2. By making STM a standalone film, they introduced some "traps" that would mean Donner's S2 footage would need major changes. If STM Donner had stayed after STM was released, I suspect he would have scrapped a lot of what he had already shot for S2 and reshot it. It's so hard to say- 1. Most likely we would not have had 'time reversal' again.... but then either Lois remembers or a memory kiss (or Supes drops something on Lois's head to make her forget) 2. On the other hand- we most likely would not have had Lois die at the FOS--- If Hackman's contract was similar to Brando's and had a limited window in which to shoot (presuming Hackman wouldn't come back)--- then most everything shot with Hackman would be 'fixed' in stone... hence, no dying for Lois at the FOS (rumoredly in the Puzo script which gives Supes the motivation to turn back time). 3. Still- he did say on the commentary he would have tried to reshoot the Brando stuff for the repowering- but the question that always hangs in the air is whether or not Donner would have stuck to his guns if they kept him, but told him Brando's percentage points had to go and he couldn't return.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 18, 2015 9:52:10 GMT -5
I think the decision to suspend work on S2 and concentrate on getting STM ready for release is what hurt S2. By making STM a standalone film, they introduced some "traps" that would mean Donner's S2 footage would need major changes. If STM Donner had stayed after STM was released, I suspect he would have scrapped a lot of what he had already shot for S2 and reshot it. It's so hard to say- 1. Most likely we would not have had 'time reversal' again.... but then either Lois remembers or a memory kiss (or Supes drops something on Lois's head to make her forget) 2. On the other hand- we most likely would not have had Lois die at the FOS--- If Hackman's contract was similar to Brando's and had a limited window in which to shoot (presuming Hackman wouldn't come back)--- then most everything shot with Hackman would be 'fixed' in stone... hence, no dying for Lois at the FOS (rumoredly in the Puzo script which gives Supes the motivation to turn back time). 3. Still- he did say on the commentary he would have tried to reshoot the Brando stuff for the repowering- but the question that always hangs in the air is whether or not Donner would have stuck to his guns if they kept him, but told him Brando's percentage points had to go and he couldn't return. A couple of other things come to mind too. Donners last minute ending for STM has Superman disobey his father in order to save Lois. Jor El should at least say something about this in S2. It is also clumsy to have Superman defy him a second time in the depowering. Also, Lois briefly suspects Clark is Superman in Donners STM ending. But she quickly dismisses the thought ("Lois Lane that is the dumbest idea you've ever had"). So it feels redundant to have the same suspicion the very next day at the Daily Planet.
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Post by booshman on Apr 18, 2015 22:05:09 GMT -5
Wasn't expecting to see this any time soon, does this mean that any hopes of getting WB to do this officially have been dropped? I always wondered why Sel didn't go the fanedit route and just release it himself. I reckon we can see that with the amount of unavaiable footage/ alternate takes he would need to complete his idea, it's not really possible right now. Saying that I would like to see what he could pull off by using what we have access to right now. I think a good percentage of what he was trying to incorporate could be achieved. Here's a thought. In terms of unavailable footage, why not utilize shots of CR from other movies around that time such as Somewhere in Time? Especially for the close-ups of Supes looking sad? A little rotoscoping, coloring of the hair... Could very well work. Well you never know, he may have gotten further than the rough version we've seen. I think he would have had a more polished version if he were going to see WB and Mank. His other clips show what he is capable of, so who knows if there are any revisions after this one. fan editing's easy as frack if you're just rearranging pre-cut footage instead of cobbling together raw dailies to make a scene from scratch which is what real editors do. I'm trying to get my fan cut on youtube because I think you guys will like it the best.. although it's 6MB and youtube only let's me upload 2MB at a time. Trying to find out how to load in increments, I think there is a flip side that you're failing to see in the restrictions of fanediting that can make it harder than if you could just edit from scratch. Being locked into the editing styles/ choices of another editor, restricted to the cuts they made, working around scenes with score already composed and mixed with the rest of the audio. Having to compromise on things you can't do because the footage that you have just won't allow for it. I would love to be able to work with the raw elements and build them from the ground up without restriction, then pass them on to someone else to do the audio, or effects, or to compose a score based on the way it was edited. Unfortunatey if you want to edit a hollywood movie from over 30 years ago, this isn't going to happen. Ultimately faneditors are usually on their own do the best they can with what they have. I realise that the tech we have now makes it easier to try your hand at editing, but that doesn't mean that it is easy to do it well.
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zuperman
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Post by zuperman on Apr 18, 2015 23:20:07 GMT -5
Just confirms what I said in my post.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 20, 2015 10:26:05 GMT -5
Here's a thought. In terms of unavailable footage, why not utilize shots of CR from other movies around that time such as Somewhere in Time? Especially for the close-ups of Supes looking sad? A little rotoscoping, coloring of the hair... Could very well work. Well you never know, he may have gotten further than the rough version we've seen. I think he would have had a more polished version if he were going to see WB and Mank. His other clips show what he is capable of, so who knows if there are any revisions after this one. fan editing's easy as frack if you're just rearranging pre-cut footage instead of cobbling together raw dailies to make a scene from scratch which is what real editors do. I'm trying to get my fan cut on youtube because I think you guys will like it the best.. although it's 6MB and youtube only let's me upload 2MB at a time. Trying to find out how to load in increments, I think there is a flip side that you're failing to see in the restrictions of fanediting that can make it harder than if you could just edit from scratch. Being locked into the editing styles/ choices of another editor, restricted to the cuts they made, working around scenes with score already composed and mixed with the rest of the audio. Having to compromise on things you can't do because the footage that you have just won't allow for it. I would love to be able to work with the raw elements and build them from the ground up without restriction, then pass them on to someone else to do the audio, or effects, or to compose a score based on the way it was edited. Unfortunatey if you want to edit a hollywood movie from over 30 years ago, this isn't going to happen. Ultimately faneditors are usually on their own do the best they can with what they have. I realise that the tech we have now makes it easier to try your hand at editing, but that doesn't mean that it is easy to do it well. It's amazing how fast it's been for home editing to really catch on. What helps is how the developers have made software easier and easier. I'd still be curious with whatever Selutron is willing to share next. At this point, I don't know why he would want to hold back.
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zuperman
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Post by zuperman on Apr 21, 2015 10:02:05 GMT -5
I have said this many times. Salkinds want money. If Donner's would've been better = more $$$$, they would've ditched Lester's. There's no doubt about that. No matter if every fan makes his own cut, whatever editing software will come out - look at Lester's and enjoy it. It's beautiful, full of love - professionally done with original cast (for the most part - Hackman having a body double at end).
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 22, 2015 1:17:37 GMT -5
What's amazing is that - sadly- it's pretty clear that Lester really wanted to (or didn't fight) having full credit of Superman II--- He didn't have to tweak it to his own. He had motive (he had no career left at the time) and he had the goods in his hands (much of Donner's quality work). He just had to change enough of it to be able to get it to change.
In a couple of moments, I see a better choice by Lester- but....we're REALLY talking about a few moments (imo)--- More money could have been saved if they kept most of Donner's stuff and re-allocated it to be able to support the costlier stuff in other scenes written by Mank.
Ilya himself said that he considered STM a better movie than SII--- but that the personal issues couldn't be overcome with Pierre and Donner. Also, Ilya has said on the commentary that he wished he hadn't been so preoccupied with personal matters during SII or he might have interfered more with what Lester was doing (ie Metro battle's comedy schtick).
In any case- yeah, at least we: 1- Have access to as much as we do with the theatrical 2- Have a ton of enthusiastic fan editors sharing their improvements that we can enjoy since WB doesn't seem interesting in revisiting it. *sigh*
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Post by supermanrecut on Apr 28, 2015 12:46:07 GMT -5
Well I discovered a potentially major problem for anyone who plans on using the time travel approach in a Superman II fan edit, of which Im one of them, that exists in the Donner Cut, and in Selutron's ending. When I first thought of it, I thought the idea of using time travel was doomed at first, but after panicking & thinking about it, I think there's hope.
Here's the problem- Superman traveling back in time is only half the solution. For example, how far back did he go exactly in order to put the villains back in the PZ, fix all the damage, AND make Lois forget? What day is it in the Donner Cut Daily Planet pizza scene? Is it the day before they're supposed to go to Niagra Falls, or the day after? What about Lex Luthor? After all, he escaped from prison before they go to Niagra Falls.
If all he did was go back in time, & didnt do anything to intervene & alter history to create a new timeline, things would just play out the same exact way as before. For example, if he went back far enough so Lois forgets, that means he'd have to go back to before they went to Niagra Falls. With no intervention, Lois would still find out who he is, Luthor would still escape go to the fortress, villains would escape again, & so on & so forth, etc etc. So after going back in time, what did he do to "undo" everything? We're not shown any of this, & I think it is really needed.
So just him going back in time wouldnt be the "magic bullet" that fixes everything. The problem with all the current turn the world back endings is the fact that all we see is him turning time back, & showing that that in fact fixed everything. Were not shown how far back he went, what day it is after he turns back time, what happened to Luthor, etc.
So what did he do to change that? In my Superman II fan edit, I would like to address these unanswered questions/problems.
In my Superman The Movie edit, I will remove Lois dying in the earthquake & end with the villians escaping from the PZ Superman throwing the rocket in space breaking them free ending on a cliffhanger the way Donner & Mank had originally intended it, & I will place Lois dying at the end of my part 2, so that Superman only time travels ONCE.
So here's a rough draft cut list of my Superman II ending-
TIME TRAVEL SEQUENCE
Lois dies in the earthqauke
Superman travels back in time to save her
We see Lois's death in the car happening in reverse
Supe is remembering Jor El's speech "You must keep your secret identity, so your enemies wont hurt the people you care for"
We hear flashbacks of Clark saying to Jor El "I need you".
We see the destruction of the crystal console/Jor El happen in reverse, showing that hes also bringing back Jor eL
We see the worldwide destruction happen in reverse- (I really like the shot of the Liberty Torch being restored)
We see him un-throwing the missile into space & cracking the PZ
POST TIME TRAVEL SEQUENCE
Cut to beginning of Daily Planet jump scene with Perry reading the paper so we see EXACTLY how far back he went
Daily Planet jump scene edited to make it quicker, cut right after Lois says sheck jump, right after we see Clarks surprised look
Cut to Niagra. This time since he knows its a blank, after she fires the gun, he pretends to feint, & Lois yells "Clark!"
Cut to Lex & Ms. T on the snowmobile right in front of the fortress
As Lex is saying- "Thats his home...", we see/hear Superman fly over, & intercept Luthor BEFORE he could ever make it inside
Cut to shot of Superman flying & carrying Lex back to prison
Cut to Daily Planet pizza scene
End Credits
Am also thinking about how to make the time travel itself be part of the fortress crystals, but be one of those things that was put in place that could only be used once, so that the audience wont think. "Oh, all he has to do is reverse time to fix everything whenever he needs to."
One possibilty is using Suzanna York's diaoloug from Superman IV- "The power in the energy module can only be used, but once. Use it wisely my son."
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 29, 2015 2:03:59 GMT -5
Well I discovered a potentially major problem for anyone who plans on using the time travel approach in a Superman II fan edit, of which Im one of them, that exists in the Donner Cut, and in Selutron's ending. When I first thought of it, I thought the idea of using time travel was doomed at first, but after panicking & thinking about it, I think there's hope. Here's the problem- Superman traveling back in time is only half the solution. For example, how far back did he go exactly in order to put the villains back in the PZ, fix all the damage, AND make Lois forget? What day is it in the Donner Cut Daily Planet pizza scene? Is it the day before they're supposed to go to Niagra Falls, or the day after? What about Lex Luthor? After all, he escaped from prison before they go to Niagra Falls. If all he did was go back in time, & didnt do anything to intervene & alter history to create a new timeline, things would just play out the same exact way as before. For example, if he went back far enough so Lois forgets, that means he'd have to go back to before they went to Niagra Falls. With no intervention, Lois would still find out who he is, Luthor would still escape go to the fortress, villains would escape again, & so on & so forth, etc etc. So after going back in time, what did he do to "undo" everything? We're not shown any of this, & I think it is really needed. So just him going back in time wouldnt be the "magic bullet" that fixes everything. The problem with all the current turn the world back endings is the fact that all we see is him turning time back, & showing that that in fact fixed everything. Were not shown how far back he went, what day it is after he turns back time, what happened to Luthor, etc. So what did he do to change that? In my Superman II fan edit, I would like to address these unanswered questions/problems. In my Superman The Movie edit, I will remove Lois dying in the earthquake & end with the villians escaping from the PZ Superman throwing the rocket in space breaking them free ending on a cliffhanger the way Donner & Mank had originally intended it, & I will place Lois dying at the end of my part 2, so that Superman only time travels ONCE. So here's a rough draft cut list of my Superman II ending- TIME TRAVEL SEQUENCE Lois dies in the earthqauke Superman travels back in time to save her We see Lois's death in the car happening in reverse Supe is remembering Jor El's speech "You must keep your secret identity, so your enemies wont hurt the people you care for" We hear flashbacks of Clark saying to Jor El "I need you". We see the destruction of the crystal console/Jor El happen in reverse, showing that hes also bringing back Jor eL We see the worldwide destruction happen in reverse- (I really like the shot of the Liberty Torch being restored) We see him un-throwing the missile into space & cracking the PZ POST TIME TRAVEL SEQUENCE Cut to beginning of Daily Planet jump scene with Perry reading the paper so we see EXACTLY how far back he went Daily Planet jump scene edited to make it quicker, cut right after Lois says sheck jump, right after we see Clarks surprised look Cut to Niagra. This time since he knows its a blank, after she fires the gun, he pretends to feint, & Lois yells "Clark!" Cut to Lex & Ms. T on the snowmobile right in front of the fortress As Lex is saying- "Thats his home...", we see/hear Superman fly over, & intercept Luthor BEFORE he could ever make it inside Cut to shot of Superman flying & carrying Lex back to prison Cut to Daily Planet pizza scene End Credits Am also thinking about how to make the time travel itself be part of the fortress crystals, but be one of those things that was put in place that could only be used once, so that the audience wont think. "Oh, all he has to do is reverse time to fix everything whenever he needs to." One possibilty is using Suzanna York's diaoloug from Superman IV- "The power in the energy module can only be used, but once. Use it wisely my son." Thanks for sharing. It's an admirable attempt.... I hear you about only using time travel once, but... I don't know.... I guess sometimes it's easier to know if it works once/if it's edited and put together. Hard to envision it fully working (for me) right now, but that's just me...
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Post by supes81 on Jul 8, 2015 7:44:25 GMT -5
Good point about the timeline thing. The Donner Cut seems to start the very next day after STM. The story about Luthors scheme was on the front page of the Daily Planet. On the other hand, the Lester version does start at some indeterminate time. It does feel like it could be years after STM. I never thought about it before, but this is probably why I prefer Lester's version of the love story. In the Donner timeline, Superman is far too quick to give up his powers. If he still hardly knew Lois, why would he tell his father he loves her and immediately agree to become human? To me, that kind of commitment only really makes sense in a timeline where they have indeed known each other for years. In Donner's film Superman is young and naive. He was impatient and had the world on his back, he was argumentative with his father and felt he knew better, his new responsibilities were becoming a burden and were something he didn't know how to handle. I always felt he gave up his powers just as much for himself as he did Lois, she was in a way an excuse, love was also new to him, he just wanted to be like everyone else again. It all was happening so fast. To me giving up his powers was like ignoring his father about turning back time, It is a moment of rebellion and distancing himself from his father to make his own life. In Lester's film he should have known better and been wiser, he must have seen his importance in the world by then and known more clearly what he was giving up. If he had been in the world a couple years and helping people then his decision should have held more weight.
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Post by supes81 on Jul 8, 2015 7:52:32 GMT -5
supes81
You said it better than me--there are indeed 2 different timelines for 2 different narratives.
I think CAM is right to say Lois is more perky in STM-but that does fit with the spontaneity of having just met both Clark and Supes.
When Supes saves Lois in the Eiffel tower there is that quick look up from Lois(just before Supes says "mam I think this is your floor").
That Lois reaction under Lester matches the same spontaneity that you get from Lois in STM.
In fact she is so amazed she forgets about the bomb : "There is a b-b- bomb!!!!"
That moment got a great reaction/laughs when I saw Supes II in 1981(and again in 1982).
So I think Lester got that sense of urgency/spunkiness from Kidder--like when she shoves Loueen("the big one is just as strong as Superman!") out of the way in the Metropolis battle-- when it was needed--but he also managed to pull out those moments of contemplation(as when Lois is staring at the globe showing Australia-wondering if Supes will make it back ).
The big problem with Lois and the perkiness is that Margot just seemed miserable in Lester's II. Not his fault and he does manage to occasionally get that spark out of her. She also seemed ill or at least not in good health. Again Lester manages to get some great performances out of her in moments. The part before she jumps in the water, in the hotel when she tells Superman/Clark she is in love with him, the memory kiss scene. But these are moments, overall that spark isn't there.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 9, 2015 18:32:07 GMT -5
Good point about the timeline thing. The Donner Cut seems to start the very next day after STM. The story about Luthors scheme was on the front page of the Daily Planet. On the other hand, the Lester version does start at some indeterminate time. It does feel like it could be years after STM. I never thought about it before, but this is probably why I prefer Lester's version of the love story. In the Donner timeline, Superman is far too quick to give up his powers. If he still hardly knew Lois, why would he tell his father he loves her and immediately agree to become human? To me, that kind of commitment only really makes sense in a timeline where they have indeed known each other for years. In Donner's film Superman is young and naive. He was impatient and had the world on his back, he was argumentative with his father and felt he knew better, his new responsibilities were becoming a burden and were something he didn't know how to handle. I always felt he gave up his powers just as much for himself as he did Lois, she was in a way an excuse, love was also new to him, he just wanted to be like everyone else again. It all was happening so fast. To me giving up his powers was like ignoring his father about turning back time, It is a moment of rebellion and distancing himself from his father to make his own life. In Lester's film he should have known better and been wiser, he must have seen his importance in the world by then and known more clearly what he was giving up. If he had been in the world a couple years and helping people then his decision should have held more weight. j With Donner's version- (Going by clips and the Mank script)- it seems and feels like Superman has only been out in the world maybe one-two years. Lester's hints that there's a much bigger gap of time between movies... I like the idea that he may have been using Lois as an excuse to get out of his responsibilities...
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