Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 7, 2016 21:42:17 GMT -5
Some people just made up their minds that no matter what that they were all in.
The same kind of criticisms were leveled at the Reeve films over and over for decades (far longer than MOS had to endure) and some of the MOS defenders didn't get tired of it then. I do believe there was a certain level of Phantom Menacing going on. With the DCEU continuing to flounder the criticisms of MOS are being justified more and more. It was more than just "haters gonna hate."
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 7, 2016 23:12:57 GMT -5
What gets me is all the complaints about Routh ten years ago are true about Cavill and in some cases worse. When Cavill tries to play Superman as tough or righteous he comes off like an assho!e. Cavill is just as stiff, stilted, bland, and awkward in the role even though he was hailed as a superior actor. Even when he gets moments to do more he comes off as bad. Part of that is Snyder and the script but part of it is him. His instincts and take on the part were wrong from the jump. And he represents a problem with most of his generation of leading men. They're too busy trying to look good and cool instead of letting go and leaving it all up on the screen. Joel Kinnamon is the same. Jai Courtney is the same. Their predecessors weren't afraid to show some passion while at the same time being natural. These guys now all seem artificial. Like you can easily spot the process of them acting instead of it seeming natural and effortless. I think it's a symptom of Hollywoods changing styles. That's why we get film scores that are generic background music instead of strong memorable themes. They don't want to be too memorable or thematic because thats "not cool" It's "dated" and "cheesy." I am still puzzled why it was OK to criticize SR and Routh 10 years ago, yet any criticism of MoS and Cavill resulted in bullying and fracturing of the forum. Some friends of mine REALLY hated SR- but we disagreed in a way that didn't have us resort to personal insults. The forum may be quieter, but for my part, I've grown to like the slower pace anyhow. It's like the difference between a giant party with a few bad apples versus a small getogether with a few folks that aren't going to throw chairs when people disagree.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 8, 2016 0:12:35 GMT -5
I don't mind disagreements even strong ones but when it got into name calling, personal insults, and trying to censor people by telling them to shut up that was ridiculous.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 8, 2016 1:15:49 GMT -5
I don't mind disagreements even strong ones but when it got into name calling, personal insults, and trying to censor people by telling them to shut up that was ridiculous. What's sad is that I'm not certain those folks who crossed the line would or wouldn't be different if the same thing happened in person, and not on the internet. Anyhow- life is short and real life has too many battles as it is. The forum may be quiet, but free of unnecessary attacks and snipes.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 14, 2016 16:58:41 GMT -5
Going back to DOJ
There is that scene right at the beginning where Bruce's family are walking in front of the cinema that is showing Excalibur.
I remember seeing the trailer for Excalibur in between STM and SII on that 1981 double bill we had in the UK.
The other trailers were for American Warewolf In London, Arthur and Raider Of The Lost Ark.
To this day I have no idea why I remember seeing those trailers with such accuracy......and why I can barely remember the trailers I see before films I watch now. Last time I went to cinema was in January to watch the Revenant. I cant remember the trailers I saw before watching it.....lol
That STM/SII double bill was something special
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 14, 2016 17:20:05 GMT -5
I thought using Excalibur was one of the more clever bits of foreshadowing. Of course Snyder had the end with Superman and Doomsday stabbing each other play out really similar to Arthur and Mordred. So...does that mean Eisenbergs Lex is Helen Mirrens Morgan? . I also liked that it gave us a clearer timeline of Bruce Wayne's life.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 14, 2016 17:38:52 GMT -5
I thought using Excalibur was one of the more clever bits of foreshadowing. Of course Snyder had the end with Superman and Doomsday stabbing each other play out really similar to Arthur and Mordred. So...does that mean Eisenbergs Lex is Helen Mirrens Morgan? . I also liked that it gave us a clearer timeline of Bruce Wayne's life. I'm just glad that Snyder didn't put "Sucker Punch" as the movie the Kents are smiling and walking away from...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 14, 2016 20:21:29 GMT -5
You mean the Waynes? In the Snyerverse the Kents took Clark to see Hard To Kill when he was ten. That's why he's a monosyllabic murder machine.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 15, 2016 9:13:05 GMT -5
You mean the Waynes? In the Snyerverse the Kents took Clark to see Hard To Kill when he was ten. That's why he's a monosyllabic murder machine. Lol! Interesting that Snyder had a 13 year old Clark in MOS carry a book of Plato(when he is bullied by the other kids) I am not a philosophy graduate or expert. According to wiki Plato was big on Father/Son relationships. He also questioned the "reality of the real world". Might explain why Snyder's Supes smashes through buildings......it's cos they are not real......dude.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 15, 2016 20:28:14 GMT -5
You mean the Waynes? In the Snyerverse the Kents took Clark to see Hard To Kill when he was ten. That's why he's a monosyllabic murder machine. Lol! Interesting that Snyder had a 13 year old Clark in MOS carry a book of Plato(when he is bullied by the other kids) I am not a philosophy graduate or expert. According to wiki Plato was big on Father/Son relationships. He also questioned the "reality of the real world". Might explain why Snyder's Supes smashes through buildings......it's cos they are not real......dude. I'd be suprised if Snyder read Plato. (If he could misinterpret Watchmen...)
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 15, 2016 21:33:15 GMT -5
Considering how thick he layed on the Christ imagery and symbolism in such an uncreative way I doubt it. I think Snyder gleans only the most superficial understating of what he sees on the surface of things like that.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 16, 2016 3:10:47 GMT -5
Considering how thick he layed on the Christ imagery and symbolism in such an uncreative way I doubt it. I think Snyder gleans only the most superficial understating of what he sees on the surface of things like that. If Snyder was a cinematographer and not a director, I'd probably be singing his praises to death, though, I have to admit.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 16, 2016 9:13:54 GMT -5
That's what he should be. That's what a lot of these guys should be. That's why they were so hot as commercial directors before directing films. In commercials you are shooting in a slick way to make the product look good. "Story" isn't as big a deal. That's why some of the Transformers vehicle scenes look like car and truck commercials.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 16, 2016 9:49:01 GMT -5
That's what he should be. That's what a lot of these guys should be. That's why they were so hot as commercial directors before directing films. In commercials you are shooting in a slick way to make the product look good. "Story" isn't as big a deal. That's why some of the Transformers vehicle scenes look like car and truck commercials. I used to be a fan of Heather Nova back in the early 1990s. She did a nice song" Walk this world with me" in 1994. I always liked the video. little did I know ol' Zack was the man behind it lol. www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzIE4j3TOlE
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 16, 2016 10:24:24 GMT -5
Some directors have made the leap from music videos very well. David Fincher is one even though he had to go through his own trials before becoming a big success. Russell Mulcahey was probably one of the first music video guys who got to direct films based on the style he brought to the videos and commercials. So much of Highlander is shot and lit like a video.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 16, 2016 10:54:48 GMT -5
Some directors have made the leap from music videos very well. David Fincher is one even though he had to go through his own trials before becoming a big success. Russell Mulcahey was probably one of the first music video guys who got to direct films based on the style he brought to the videos and commercials. So much of Highlander is shot and lit like a video. Funny you mention Highlander- to me, I always thought that movie had a great concept and visual style- but no heart nor depth. (Though it's better with a deleted scene of the Highlander's daughter) Reminded me a lot of MOS.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 16, 2016 11:41:43 GMT -5
I always thought it had heart and depth which is what helped it overcome its other defeciencies like lower budget, vague plot, questionable acting, and derivative story elements. The characters and the love story made it work despite all that IMO. It was the sequels that suffered from lack of depth and character.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 16, 2016 12:40:20 GMT -5
Some directors have made the leap from music videos very well. David Fincher is one even though he had to go through his own trials before becoming a big success. Russell Mulcahey was probably one of the first music video guys who got to direct films based on the style he brought to the videos and commercials. So much of Highlander is shot and lit like a video. I have only seen Highlander once over 20 years ago and can barely remember anything about it. You might argue Richard Lester is the father of the modern music video with his quick non linear editing used on his work with the Beatles.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 16, 2016 17:31:00 GMT -5
Considering his Beatles documentaries id say it's a fair argument. Heh...any of you guys ever seen this?
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 18, 2016 3:12:40 GMT -5
Considering his Beatles documentaries id say it's a fair argument. Heh...any of you guys ever seen this? Nice! besides.....as we speak...and save for a few speculative particles of dirt that are rising from his grave.....Cavill's Superman is dead. Reeve's Superman last checked out smiling at the camera and flying off into space. So he is definitely no#1
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 18, 2016 17:06:58 GMT -5
Considering his Beatles documentaries id say it's a fair argument. Heh...any of you guys ever seen this? Makes me wonder--- if Nolan directed with Goyer's script, and only had Snyder in charge of action sequences.... would everything have been fixed that we didn't like? #1: For sure, Nolan said he wouldn't have had Superman kill Zod. Avoiding that criticism. #2: Second, the performances would have been smoother imo. Even with TDKR (which I hated), the performances were still fine in that one. #3: Would Nolan have had Superman be more open and connect to people like the Reeve version? Hard to say. Most of Nolan's characters in ALL of his movies are pretty unsentimental--- But Nolan has/had giant respect for STM. Hard to say.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 19, 2016 14:51:48 GMT -5
It would have been a better movie but I don't think Nolan handles natural warm human emotions or base feelings and ideals as well as someone like Donner. What Nolans does best is loftier ideals and intellectually complex moral questions. You give him something like "love" to explore and it comes off as kind of ham fisted the way it did in Inception. I never felt that any of Bruce's romantic relationships in his Batman movies ranked among the better romances in superhero movies. The chemistry and the passion seemed to be lacking to me.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 19, 2016 15:42:56 GMT -5
It would have been a better movie but I don't think Nolan handles natural warm human emotions or base feelings and ideals as well as someone like Donner. What Nolans does best is loftier ideals and intellectually complex moral questions. You give him something like "love" to explore and it comes off as kind of ham fisted the way it did in Inception. I never felt that any of Bruce's romantic relationships in his Batman movies ranked among the better romances in superhero movies. The chemistry and the passion seemed to be lacking to me. Totally agreed. At the end of the day MOS is Nolan's baby from a story telling point of view. I don't think we can expect much more from him. He told Donner that when he was a kid.....his dad took him onto the fortress of solitude set in 1977.....not sure how that happened anyways. But it sums up Nolan's depictions.....a bit cold and icy....but sharp and clinical.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 28, 2016 7:39:51 GMT -5
Film is a collaborative effort. Maybe the most collaborative art form. What Nolan does well he does very well but he should have been more questioning of Snyder if it was a film he was going to put his name on. I know if I was putting my name and reputation on something I wouldn't want it to be trash. With Snyder and Goyer it's the blind leading the blind so they werent going to check and balance each other. What we've had so far is a bunch of WB executives calling the shots and no one to challenge Snyder on his bad ideas. He darn sure wasn't going to challenge to studio on theirs. That's a recipe for disaster.
The best films tend to come from an exchange of ideas and people standing up for what they think is going to be the best film. We don't see that much in big Hollywood films anymore. That's why we get so much bloated budget studio driven newbie yes men directed garbage. They pick these guys with some skill who won't challenge them but do war hey say because hey have no balls or no clout. Donner fought the producers on superman every day. Sometimes someone has to fight for the best movie. Most writers and directors now are just happy to get the work and will do whatever and say whatever the studios want to hear even if they know the film will be an all around failure. Then some of these same guys know how to spin it to fail upwards until they run out of excuses and can't bullsh!t their way through anymore.
Anyone know what Rick McCallum is up to these days?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 28, 2016 23:15:25 GMT -5
It would have been a better movie but I don't think Nolan handles natural warm human emotions or base feelings and ideals as well as someone like Donner. What Nolans does best is loftier ideals and intellectually complex moral questions. You give him something like "love" to explore and it comes off as kind of ham fisted the way it did in Inception. I never felt that any of Bruce's romantic relationships in his Batman movies ranked among the better romances in superhero movies. The chemistry and the passion seemed to be lacking to me. I agree.... the disconnect actually worked perfect for the story- as the highest emotions come from the flashback bits with young Bruce and his dad, over music- not the love story. But in the story, Bale/Bruce supposedly comes back less human and can't connect, so that worked perfectly in sync with Nolan's unsentimental style. With Dark Knight Returns- neither the Talia/Bruce love story nor the Catwoman/Bruce love story really comes off as passionate nor all that interesting. For those types of story elements, you needed someone who was a little more sentimental perhaps as a director for those bits to work.
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