Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 29, 2016 8:51:07 GMT -5
Yeah. I never felt anything like passion or lust of anything like that between Bruce and "Miranda" even though there obviously should have been. Didn't see much chemistry between Bale and Hathaway either. They were both fine but where was that spark like West and Newmar or Keaton and Pfeiffer had? I'd put the fault more on Nolan than I would the actors.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 31, 2016 11:04:52 GMT -5
Yeah. I never felt anything like passion or lust of anything like that between Bruce and "Miranda" even though there obviously should have been. Didn't see much chemistry between Bale and Hathaway either. They were both fine but where was that spark like West and Newmar or Keaton and Pfeiffer had? I'd put the fault more on Nolan than I would the actors. In seeing Nolan's other films, he definitely seems to want to avoid any 'direct' relationship scenes... whereas someone like Donner relishes scenes where characters flirt and begin a romance. There's so much wrong in TDKR imo that I suprisingly wish someone else had taken over. (No, not you, Richard Lester. Stay in your seat)
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 2, 2016 18:59:33 GMT -5
It's not awful but you can tell Nolan said everything he wanted to say on Batman with Begins and TDK. He had to scramble to finish the trilogy WB wanted. If it were up to him ok not sure we would have gotten TDKR. Not as soon as we did anyway. Maybe that's why it took four years. It's impressive on a Technical level but the story and characters took steps down.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 3, 2016 1:16:08 GMT -5
It's not awful but you can tell Nolan said everything he wanted to say on Batman with Begins and TDK. He had to scramble to finish the trilogy WB wanted. If it were up to him ok not sure we would have gotten TDKR. Not as soon as we did anyway. Maybe that's why it took four years. It's impressive on a Technical level but the story and characters took steps down. To me, it just hit ALL the wrong notes. Shocked how poor so many of the decisions were (to me). I wish they'd release any notes or treatments on what we would have gotten if Ledger didn't die and was part of TDKR as originally planned...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 3, 2016 8:43:40 GMT -5
I think Ledgers part would have been small. Nolan doesn't strike me as the type of guy to repeat the same thing in a sequel. I've always felt it Joker had been it it we would have seen him cameo after the prisons were blown open. Maybe ruling his own piece of Gotham. Maybe he would have had scarecrows role as the judge of the kangaroo court. His crazy verdicts felt very Joker ish.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 3, 2016 10:46:57 GMT -5
I think Ledgers part would have been small. Nolan doesn't strike me as the type of guy to repeat the same thing in a sequel. I've always felt it Joker had been it it we would have seen him cameo after the prisons were blown open. Maybe ruling his own piece of Gotham. Maybe he would have had scarecrows role as the judge of the kangaroo court. His crazy verdicts felt very Joker ish. That's interesting- I thought the Joker was going to be the main baddie to close out the Nolan Batman... and maybe blend in parts of the end of the Frank Miller Dark Knight. If so- it might have wiped out a good chunk of what I disliked about TDKR, though there's a whole laundry list of choices I thought were just awful with that film. So sad...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 3, 2016 12:13:53 GMT -5
I think a lot of it would have been the same. Jonathan Nolan is on record saying how much he loved Catwoman and that she had to be on the movie. I think a lot of people's problem is how long Batman was out of action but again that's something clearly influenced by The Dark Knight Returns. Bane takes on elements of the mutant gang leader too. The movie is also heavily influenced by Knightfall and I think they eventually wanted some of those memorable images
I think the problem with Rises is the Nolans only had a vague idea of what they wanted to do and a few ideas they wanted to throw in. It wasn't like the end of Batman Begins where it was pretty clear batman was going to take on Joker. Rises supposedly comes full circle on purpose but using the league of shadows and their bond villian plan of destroying the city feels like a rehash.
I just don't think Nolans heart was in it like the other two and he didn't have the focus to craft a better story. Like I said before most of what filmmakers didn't get to do in the first film gets done in the second. By the third film a lot of the best ideas are exhausted. He was just delivering on his contract with WB plus he knew it would get him other opportunities to do whatever movies he wanted at the studio. I think Rises is an ok movie but some of the ideas are half baked and too much was going on.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 3, 2016 23:01:22 GMT -5
I think a lot of it would have been the same. Jonathan Nolan is on record saying how much he loved Catwoman and that she had to be on the movie. I think a lot of people's problem is how long Batman was out of action but again that's something clearly influenced by The Dark Knight Returns. Bane takes on elements of the mutant gang leader too. The movie is also heavily influenced by Knightfall and I think they eventually wanted some of those memorable images I think the problem with Rises is the Nolans only had a vague idea of what they wanted to do and a few ideas they wanted to throw in. It wasn't like the end of Batman Begins where it was pretty clear batman was going to take on Joker. Rises supposedly comes full circle on purpose but using the league of shadows and their bond villian plan of destroying the city feels like a rehash. I just don't think Nolans heart was in it like the other two and he didn't have the focus to craft a better story. Like I said before most of what filmmakers didn't get to do in the first film gets done in the second. By the third film a lot of the best ideas are exhausted. He was just delivering on his contract with WB plus he knew it would get him other opportunities to do whatever movies he wanted at the studio. I think Rises is an ok movie but some of the ideas are half baked and too much was going on. To me, the strength of TDK was that it really was an emotional journey for Bruce Wayne- that fit EXACTLY my own feeling of who/how Batman is. TDKR was too 'logical' in places where it didn't need to be (the health issues of Bruce Wayne), and not logical enough that it left a plot hole here and there a little too big for me to ignore or question the reality of it (How is it that Catwoman is on the same level of fighting as Batman?). The general credibility of what TDK asked me to believe in that world felt very plausible.... I felt that as long as there was someone being attacked or killed anonymously, that it would take far more for Batman to be out of action aside from Rachel getting killed. (If so, wouldn't he have stopped then in TDK?) In any case, I know it worked okay to pretty good for a lot of folks, but I really really was disappointed with it.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 4, 2016 9:10:25 GMT -5
I agree with you. Much like Bruce Wayne in the pit the story asks us to take too many leaps of faith. That's why I said the script felt like it hadn't really been strongly hammered out. It had issues.
To be fair to them Rachel's death isn't what stopped him from being Batman. It's the one reason why he couldn't totally give up on being Batman again. The Dent act basically eradicating crime in Gotham, particularly organized crime, is what caused Bruce to hang up his cape and cowl. Taking out the Batmobile to beat up kids spraying graffiti and purse snatching seems like overkill. The unconstitutionality of the Dent act was on of the blackest marks on Gordon and showed how wrong the lie he and Batman crafted was.
Now I do think it's fair to question the believability of the Dent act being so sucessful.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Sept 4, 2016 10:49:16 GMT -5
I agree with you. Much like Bruce Wayne in the pit the story asks us to take too many leaps of faith. That's why I said the script felt like it hadn't really been strongly hammered out. It had issues. To be fair to them Rachel's death isn't what stopped him from being Batman. It's the one reason why he couldn't totally give up on being Batman again. The Dent act basically eradicating crime in Gotham, particularly organized crime, is what caused Bruce to hang up his cape and cowl. Taking out the Batmobile to beat up kids spraying graffiti and purse snatching seems like overkill. The unconstitutionality of the Dent act was on of the blackest marks on Gordon and showed how wrong the lie he and Batman crafted was. Now I do think it's fair to question the believability of the Dent act being so sucessful. I agree with both you and CAM about the shortfalls in DKR. But one thing that did fulfill my expectations was the first Bane vs Batman fight. No music, some good thudding sound effects(grunts, punches,water running down the shafts ect ect ) and some good Bane interjections: "Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you" "The shadows betray you....because they belong to me" Unfortunately everything that preceded it and everything that came after it let the whole piece down in general.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 4, 2016 11:37:32 GMT -5
I agree with you. Nolans not the best with action sequences but the fights with Bane are the best of the Dark Knight trilogy. I think Nolan knew how big a deal it was and ditched some of the techniques he used on previous films. This time there were fewer cuts and more wide angles. We really got to SEE more of the fight.
It was the first time we'd really seen Batman in a great challenging one on one brawl in love action. He finally had a foe that could match him.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 4, 2016 12:53:46 GMT -5
I agree with you. Nolans not the best with action sequences but the fights with Bane are the best of the Dark Knight trilogy. I think Nolan knew how big a deal it was and ditched some of the techniques he used on previous films. This time there were fewer cuts and more wide angles. We really got to SEE more of the fight. It was the first time we'd really seen Batman in a great challenging one on one brawl in love action. He finally had a foe that could match him. I thought there were two big missteps with the battle: #1: Having the medical examination BEFORE the battle saying there's not much left to Bruce's body (add insult to injury in the credibility dept.- why add this when he's also going to make a 100% recovery from his back being broken later? Ridiculous choice in trying to be logical in the wrong spots for a comic book film). It wasn't necessary- and would have made Bane's kicking of Batman's arse even more shocking if Batman - who was trained in every martial arts in the book- at the peak of his abilities, get hammered down. Lost opportunity for a bigger impact imo. #2: Batman cough drop breath in the middle of the fight. I could understand Bruce's desire to change his voice in most situations, but when you're out of breath and being choked to death? I did like the Batfleck solution of making the voice change an electronic gimmick built into the costume, but I had an unintentional laugh and groan while watching this. The car cash stuff is phenomenal (Or at least Nolan's choices and edits are)- the action stuff with Batman has been 'meh' to 'bleah' in movies overall until Snyder's Batman action sequence towards the end of the film (Batman being comfortable with a gun in the dream sequence in BvS never sat right with me.)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 4, 2016 12:55:31 GMT -5
I agree with you. Much like Bruce Wayne in the pit the story asks us to take too many leaps of faith. That's why I said the script felt like it hadn't really been strongly hammered out. It had issues. To be fair to them Rachel's death isn't what stopped him from being Batman. It's the one reason why he couldn't totally give up on being Batman again. The Dent act basically eradicating crime in Gotham, particularly organized crime, is what caused Bruce to hang up his cape and cowl. Taking out the Batmobile to beat up kids spraying graffiti and purse snatching seems like overkill. The unconstitutionality of the Dent act was on of the blackest marks on Gordon and showed how wrong the lie he and Batman crafted was. Now I do think it's fair to question the believability of the Dent act being so sucessful. I agree with both you and CAM about the shortfalls in DKR. But one thing that did fulfill my expectations was the first Bane vs Batman fight. No music, some good thudding sound effects(grunts, punches,water running down the shafts ect ect ) and some good Bane interjections: "Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you" "The shadows betray you....because they belong to me" Unfortunately everything that preceded it and everything that came after it let the whole piece down in general. There are nice ideas and moments in TDKR- but they contradicted each other by trying to do WAYYY too many things and short-circuit one another.... much like Spiderman 3, I thought. If TDKR was split into two films, I think it could have been far more effective. (Assuming more refined rewrites were going on.)
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 4, 2016 21:15:37 GMT -5
I agree with you. Nolans not the best with action sequences but the fights with Bane are the best of the Dark Knight trilogy. I think Nolan knew how big a deal it was and ditched some of the techniques he used on previous films. This time there were fewer cuts and more wide angles. We really got to SEE more of the fight. It was the first time we'd really seen Batman in a great challenging one on one brawl in love action. He finally had a foe that could match him. I thought there were two big missteps with the battle: #1: Having the medical examination BEFORE the battle saying there's not much left to Bruce's body (add insult to injury in the credibility dept.- why add this when he's also going to make a 100% recovery from his back being broken later? Ridiculous choice in trying to be logical in the wrong spots for a comic book film). It wasn't necessary- and would have made Bane's kicking of Batman's arse even more shocking if Batman - who was trained in every martial arts in the book- at the peak of his abilities, get hammered down. Lost opportunity for a bigger impact imo. #2: Batman cough drop breath in the middle of the fight. I could understand Bruce's desire to change his voice in most situations, but when you're out of breath and being choked to death? I did like the Batfleck solution of making the voice change an electronic gimmick built into the costume, but I had an unintentional laugh and groan while watching this. The car cash stuff is phenomenal (Or at least Nolan's choices and edits are)- the action stuff with Batman has been 'meh' to 'bleah' in movies overall until Snyder's Batman action sequence towards the end of the film (Batman being comfortable with a gun in the dream sequence in BvS never sat right with me.) Well that's one thing Nolan actually did right. After all the stuff Batman puts himself through physically his body SHOULD be breaking down. In Kingdom Come he wore a full powered exoskeleton because his body was so badly damaged after years as Batman. In Batman Beyond his body and heart literally gave out on him before he was 60. That's why he developed a high tech batsuit and a larger power armor so he could keep being batman. Even the strain of those were too much for him. In Batman War on Crime he's covered in scars. TDK and BVS recreated the same scene of a shirtless scar covered Bruce Wayne. If there were ever a believable in character reason for Batman to quit it would be that his body just couldn't handle any more. Nolan never took it to those levels but he showed that realistically Batmans activities would leave a person with some serious injuries and handicaps. Remember in Kightfall Bane DID beat Batman and it was because Wayne was injured and physically exhausted. It wasn't some anti climax in the movie because Nolan basically followed the comic there. Only Nolan had a Bane who was also dealing with limitations from injuries to make the playing field a little more level. Us knowing Batman was going into a fight with Bane as the physical underdog was an intentional choice to build up suspense and the feeling of impending doom. You get the sinking feeling that Batman will lose and lose badly. Rocky 3 did the same thing. "Don't take this guy lightly. You don't have what it takes anymore. He's more driven and ferocious." It's something else they borrowed from not just Knightfall but Dark Knight Returns when an older past his prime Batman takes on the much younger physically superior gang leader. Batman loses both fights because he thinks he can fight both of these superior guys head on with brute strength and brawling. He beats them both in a rematch because he changes his approach and uses some guile. With Bane he goes for his weakness and let's Bane come to him. With the Mutant leader he systematically takes him apart. Batman doesn't go toe to toe with these guys he outthinks them. In both case Batman loses and then fights smarter in the rematch but the sense of impeding doom was a major part of the comics and that's why Nolan incorporated it in his movies. It showed that Bane wasn't just a better fighter but a hunter who surveilled and wore down his prey before he went in for the kill. It showed Banes cunning. If we don't know Batman is worn down Bane can't know either. Now where I do agree with you is the use of some stupid knee brace suddenly putting Batman back in top fighting form is silly. Batman should have shown he lost a step well before he fought Bane. It was even worse when he recovered so quickly and fully from the back injury Bane gave him. I think Nolan tried to make it less severe than it was in the comics to explain that. In the movie it sounded to me like it was a bulging disc or vertebrae. In the comics he had multiple fractures in his spine. But it's still hard to believe he could have recovered so fast and so well in the movie especially when he didn't get the best of medical treatment. All this sh!t is what I mean when I say the script glossed over a lot. There are problems with Wayne putting on his bat voice with people who clearly know Batman and Bruce are one and the same so I can't argue with that either. He did it with Ra's, Bane, and Talia even though they all knew who he was. He even did it with Rachel and Catwoman after they found out who he was. Seemed pointless. I could understand if there were with other people who didn't know but in most cases there weren't. I didn't mind anything Batman did in the future dream sequence in BVS since it was showing that the world had become such a bleak place that Batman and Supermanhad changed. They'd both been pushed to extremes because of something terrible happening and the world falling into chaos. I did have some problems with the levels of violence Batman displayed in the present. Even that wouldn't have been so bad except there's no way a Batman that deadly would have let most of his villians like Joker and Croc keep on walking around breathing. A lot of them should be dead. The only other Batman that came close was Keaton's but at least some of what Batfleck did was necessary. Torching KGBeast wasn't as bad as Keaton torching that member of the red triangle circus gang because that was unnecessary and gratuitous.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 5, 2016 10:53:38 GMT -5
I thought there were two big missteps with the battle: #1: Having the medical examination BEFORE the battle saying there's not much left to Bruce's body (add insult to injury in the credibility dept.- why add this when he's also going to make a 100% recovery from his back being broken later? Ridiculous choice in trying to be logical in the wrong spots for a comic book film). It wasn't necessary- and would have made Bane's kicking of Batman's arse even more shocking if Batman - who was trained in every martial arts in the book- at the peak of his abilities, get hammered down. Lost opportunity for a bigger impact imo. #2: Batman cough drop breath in the middle of the fight. I could understand Bruce's desire to change his voice in most situations, but when you're out of breath and being choked to death? I did like the Batfleck solution of making the voice change an electronic gimmick built into the costume, but I had an unintentional laugh and groan while watching this. The car cash stuff is phenomenal (Or at least Nolan's choices and edits are)- the action stuff with Batman has been 'meh' to 'bleah' in movies overall until Snyder's Batman action sequence towards the end of the film (Batman being comfortable with a gun in the dream sequence in BvS never sat right with me.) Well that's one thing Nolan actually did right. After all the stuff Batman puts himself through physically his body SHOULD be breaking down. In Kingdom Come he wore a full powered exoskeleton because his body was so badly damaged after years as Batman. In Batman Beyond his body and heart literally gave out on him before he was 60. That's why he developed a high tech batsuit and a larger power armor so he could keep being batman. Even the strain of those were too much for him. In Batman War on Crime he's covered in scars. TDK and BVS recreated the same scene of a shirtless scar covered Bruce Wayne. If there were ever a believable in character reason for Batman to quit it would be that his body just couldn't handle any more. Nolan never took it to those levels but he showed that realistically Batmans activities would leave a person with some serious injuries and handicaps. Remember in Kightfall Bane DID beat Batman and it was because Wayne was injured and physically exhausted. It wasn't some anti climax in the movie because Nolan basically followed the comic there. Only Nolan had a Bane who was also dealing with limitations from injuries to make the playing field a little more level. Us knowing Batman was going into a fight with Bane as the physical underdog was an intentional choice to build up suspense and the feeling of impending doom. You get the sinking feeling that Batman will lose and lose badly. Rocky 3 did the same thing. "Don't take this guy lightly. You don't have what it takes anymore. He's more driven and ferocious." It's something else they borrowed from not just Knightfall but Dark Knight Returns when an older past his prime Batman takes on the much younger physically superior gang leader. Batman loses both fights because he thinks he can fight both of these superior guys head on with brute strength and brawling. He beats them both in a rematch because he changes his approach and uses some guile. With Bane he goes for his weakness and let's Bane come to him. With the Mutant leader he systematically takes him apart. Batman doesn't go toe to toe with these guys he outthinks them. In both case Batman loses and then fights smarter in the rematch but the sense of impeding doom was a major part of the comics and that's why Nolan incorporated it in his movies. It showed that Bane wasn't just a better fighter but a hunter who surveilled and wore down his prey before he went in for the kill. It showed Banes cunning. If we don't know Batman is worn down Bane can't know either. Now where I do agree with you is the use of some stupid knee brace suddenly putting Batman back in top fighting form is silly. Batman should have shown he lost a step well before he fought Bane. It was even worse when he recovered so quickly and fully from the back injury Bane gave him. I think Nolan tried to make it less severe than it was in the comics to explain that. In the movie it sounded to me like it was a bulging disc or vertebrae. In the comics he had multiple fractures in his spine. But it's still hard to believe he could have recovered so fast and so well in the movie especially when he didn't get the best of medical treatment. All this sh!t is what I mean when I say the script glossed over a lot. There are problems with Wayne putting on his bat voice with people who clearly know Batman and Bruce are one and the same so I can't argue with that either. He did it with Ra's, Bane, and Talia even though they all knew who he was. He even did it with Rachel and Catwoman after they found out who he was. Seemed pointless. I could understand if there were with other people who didn't know but in most cases there weren't. I didn't mind anything Batman did in the future dream sequence in BVS since it was showing that the world had become such a bleak place that Batman and Supermanhad changed. They'd both been pushed to extremes because of something terrible happening and the world falling into chaos. I did have some problems with the levels of violence Batman displayed in the present. Even that wouldn't have been so bad except there's no way a Batman that deadly would have let most of his villians like Joker and Croc keep on walking around breathing. A lot of them should be dead. The only other Batman that came close was Keaton's but at least some of what Batfleck did was necessary. Torching KGBeast wasn't as bad as Keaton torching that member of the red triangle circus gang because that was unnecessary and gratuitous. For the basic plot that Nolan might have been setting up--- sort of 'the superhero/gunslinger goes to his last showdown'.... I like that idea- (and the story intentions sound much better the way you're describing the movie than the actual movie!)- but if that's the case, that sounds like the movie would have been far better served with a director with a romantic or sentimental aesthetic, rather than with a cold detached perspective. With most of Batman Begins and all of Dark Knight, the unsentimental nature of those films made the story feel 'real'--- here, (as well as with "The Prestige", I thought), it kept you too much at a distance to really care about the characters as much as I feel we should have throughout the film. And- yeah, glad we agree on the batvoice.... it's one of two things I thought Snyder DID do better than previous Batman directors- making batvoice a tech part of the suit, and the batfight I have to give him the thumbs up on. On another note: I just saw "The Raid".... MAN, if Gareth Edwards did a Batman film....
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 5, 2016 12:13:16 GMT -5
Well I've said forever that Nolan is it doesn't handle passionate emotion or sentiment very well. I think your right that TDK works because of the crime drama thriller elements that Nolan excels at.
Rises tried to do to much, got too over the top comic booky at times, and the emotion of it all didn't always click. Never bought any kind of love between Bruce and Talia. Bane and Talias relashionship wasn't fleshed out enough. We were just told he loved this little girl and we were supposed to buy it.
I don't like the electronic voice Barfleck used but I can see why they used it. I'm not sure if Affleck could have naturally done a cnvincing Batman voice and using a voice changer fits the more realistic modern take Snyder is going for with all these characters. I just think it's played out steer hearing it done for so many years on Smallville, Arrow, and Flash. It's not like Snyder came up with that idea for a superhero.
But with Bale...his voice worked when he didn't go so over the top with it. It was ok in Begins. After that he is it started sounding rather ridiculous. His whole spiel to Joker at the end of TDK just came off as laughable. And it was used at inappropriate or unnecessary times too.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 5, 2016 14:16:57 GMT -5
Well I've said forever that Nolan is it doesn't handle passionate emotion or sentiment very well. I think your right that TDK works because of the crime drama thriller elements that Nolan excels at. Rises tried to do to much, got too over the top comic booky at times, and the emotion of it all didn't always click. Never bought any kind of love between Bruce and Talia. Bane and Talias relashionship wasn't fleshed out enough. We were just told he loved this little girl and we were supposed to buy it. I don't like the electronic voice Barfleck used but I can see why they used it. I'm not sure if Affleck could have naturally done a cnvincing Batman voice and using a voice changer fits the more realistic modern take Snyder is going for with all these characters. I just think it's played out steer hearing it done for so many years on Smallville, Arrow, and Flash. It's not like Snyder came up with that idea for a superhero. But with Bale...his voice worked when he didn't go so over the top with it. It was ok in Begins. After that he is it started sounding rather ridiculous. His whole spiel to Joker at the end of TDK just came off as laughable. And it was used at inappropriate or unnecessary times too. Agreed. The cough drop voice just went WAYYY too far. I know Nolan wanted to have realistic aspects to his version, so I guess changing the voice might have been a realistic way to help keep the secret identity, but as you mention, it was ridiculous. Fortunately for TDK, everything else was so powerful, one forgives it.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 10, 2016 19:09:56 GMT -5
The idea was fine but it was done to the point of comedy in TDK. Batmans been described as changing his voice to hide his identity for decades but their creative direction on how far to take it went way waaaay south at times.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 11, 2016 11:19:15 GMT -5
The idea was fine but it was done to the point of comedy in TDK. Batmans been described as changing his voice to hide his identity for decades but their creative direction on how far to take it went way waaaay south at times. Yeah.... More laughable might have been seeing the outtakes of Nolan directing the 'voice change' to get Bale's voice where he wanted. ("Throatier. More raspy. Still sounds like Bruce Wayne.")
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