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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 1, 2012 20:19:34 GMT -5
Great points, Tyler....
The problem, though, I think is that the number of fans that are clamoring for a new cut isn't on the same level as, say, Star Wars, where it's pretty clear that the sales would be there.
Secondly, who on the Hollywood side who's at all connected to the movie be championing this?
Selutron (whoever he/she is) doesn't seem to have the clout, and Mank might have been the only real supporter. We have no idea if Donner ever saw any of the clips..... though we do know that Donner checks out Capedwonder, which also hosts the Selutron clips....
(Though it should be pointed out that in the Thau interview, Donner himself cut his own footage from SII, including certain scenes-- so, having Donner be championing a new cut might be just as scary if he's involved in cutting it down to pieces)
When looking at the different sides of the situation, it's almost a point where one wants to throw their hands up in the air when one looks at the probabilities from afar.
If the IRC or any new extended SII cut happens, I'll be jumping for joy. Shoot, if they release the deleted/extended scenes in restored HD on a separate disc, I'll be thrilled. Consider me very curious if they have ANYTHING at all planned for a MOS dvd/movie tie-in..... but I'm not optimistic...*sigh*
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 1, 2012 21:54:53 GMT -5
Again, this is why if WB sees what we do with essentially no money at all, the only thing they'd have to (for the most part) is release it. heck, if they want extra funds, sell the theatrical and Donner Cut dvds for dirt cheap before the new release, as most companies do before a new version is released. Then make the theatrical and Donner Cut out of print. Wipe them from our memories for good, and never let anyone who is seeing it for the first time have to concern themselves with the behind the scenes fiasco.
Like Sel said:
A version of the film you DON'T have to make excuses for.
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Post by booshman on Sept 2, 2012 9:53:09 GMT -5
Then make the theatrical and Donner Cut out of print. Wipe them from our memories for good, and never let anyone who is seeing it for the first time have to concern themselves with the behind the scenes fiasco.  |
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Rod
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Post by Rod on Sept 2, 2012 18:16:37 GMT -5
why lucas has a frog in his throat?
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 2, 2012 22:12:57 GMT -5
Fine. Keep all 3 versions, but put them all on the same release, like the dvd of "Legend" which has both the theatrical and the directors cut in the same box.
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monkeymagic
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Post by monkeymagic on Sept 3, 2012 3:36:01 GMT -5
I have that DVD set. I prefer the directors version myself. Shame there is still footage lost from the film that they can't find.  Ridley should've thrown out the people from the preview audience that he talks about during one of the making of docs. |
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Post by booshman on Sept 3, 2012 6:38:19 GMT -5
I'm toying with the idea of a re-edit of Superman the Movie.  My thinking it that (although I don't have a problem with it myself), the time reversal ending has a knock on effect into part 2 with the plot-hole it creates. If it's taken out, then the rocket that is thrown into space is the one that sets the villains free. The other rocket still activates the fault, and Supes flies around saving everyone, but Lois is fine. She escapes the gas station and breaks down to be met by Lois and then Jimmy at the end. This would be nothing on the scale of the overhaul of part 2, just correcting the moments regarded as the weakest. I'm thinking the theatrical cut with "Can You Read My Mind" replaced with just the score, and the turning back the world ending removed. Also a teaser with the villains release would be added here. This would then effect my cut of part 2 with the villains release having already been used, So after the credits we would go straight to the Daily Planet. The recap would also need a little alteration too. This isn't a definite, as I love the movie as is, but the more I think about it I am leaning that way. As my favourite movie it feels weird to want to take the knife to it, but I think it could work well. Any thoughts? |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 3, 2012 7:51:49 GMT -5
I really hope you don't do this Booshman. 2 reasons: 1. STM is a perfect movie as-is IMO (theatrical, not expanded). Time reversal and all. 2: I don't want to have to watch an edit of STM for it to tie with your cut.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 3, 2012 7:54:28 GMT -5
I have that DVD set. I prefer the directors version myself. Shame there is still footage lost from the film that they can't find. Ridley should've thrown out the people from the preview audience that he talks about during one of the making of docs. There's a fan edit re-inserts the deleted footage from the making-of, but since that footage wasn't fixed, it's a workprint edit. There's a few edits of Legend, actually. My favorite is the "Tangerine Dream extended version". It's essentially a longer version of the theatrical, same music by TD, but fleshes out the story and characters more. Runs about an hour and forty five minutes, I think. Works for me. |
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matt
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Post by matt on Sept 3, 2012 9:04:06 GMT -5
Sounds interesting, If it will make your SII work better then you should try it.
You can do your current SII as is and or do both versions STM and SII edit together.
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Post by Kamdan on Sept 3, 2012 10:58:07 GMT -5
I think it would be interesting to see a cut of Superman: The Movie that makes it connect to Superman II, like it was originally envisioned. Of course, if you were to pull it off successfully, it would need some footage from the KCOP edition, like how the water is restored to the Native Americans.
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atp
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Post by atp on Sept 3, 2012 12:47:16 GMT -5
I'm toying with the idea of a re-edit of Superman the Movie. My thinking it that (although I don't have a problem with it myself), the time reversal ending has a knock on effect into part 2 with the plot-hole it creates. If it's taken out, then the rocket that is thrown into space is the one that sets the villains free. The other rocket still activates the fault, and Supes flies around saving everyone, but Lois is fine. She escapes the gas station and breaks down to be met by Lois and then Jimmy at the end. This would be nothing on the scale of the overhaul of part 2, just correcting the moments regarded as the weakest. I'm thinking the theatrical cut with "Can You Read My Mind" replaced with just the score, and the turning back the world ending removed. Also a teaser with the villains release would be added here. This would then effect my cut of part 2 with the villains release having already been used, So after the credits we would go straight to the Daily Planet. The recap would also need a little alteration too. This isn't a definite, as I love the movie as is, but the more I think about it I am leaning that way. As my favourite movie it feels weird to want to take the knife to it, but I think it could work well. Any thoughts? can you combine stm and s2 into one movie that eliminates lex luthor totally? that would remove the need for turning back time. |
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Sept 3, 2012 13:40:15 GMT -5
Yea, do it! I think it's a great pay off to the trail at the start. I never watch STM with the time reversal at all. Exactly as you stated, frees the villains, other missile still goes off. I love the fact the Superman saves the day by doing his stuff.
Have the three escape and show them free. Later on after S takes L and O to prison, have the scene with the three heading towards the moon. End credits. Start SII with the same shot you ended on, opening titles and then the Daily Planet Jump.
That's me anyway!
End II with time reversal.
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Rod
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Post by Rod on Sept 3, 2012 21:01:09 GMT -5
the time travel is silly yes, but lois death and reeve reaction to it is one of the best things of the movie.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 3, 2012 23:07:33 GMT -5
Agreed.... but I think that's why (ideally) the whole thing should have been saved for SII- if things had gone as originally planned with STM and SII filmed at the same time--- and with Lois's death in the Fortress of Solitude and after (presumably) everything that Puzo thought could have been done with the Superman mythos had been done. (Meaning, having the scream/ journey to the clouds/ etc. that was in STM, instead for SII)
Things being what they are, though--- I've always been curious what an edit of STM would have been like without the time reversal and integrating the comic book ending/ teaser for SII tagged on the end, as originally scripted (and probably would have been similar in form to what they did at the end of Three Musketeers).
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Post by supes81 on Sept 4, 2012 4:55:49 GMT -5
I'm toying with the idea of a re-edit of Superman the Movie. My thinking it that (although I don't have a problem with it myself), the time reversal ending has a knock on effect into part 2 with the plot-hole it creates. If it's taken out, then the rocket that is thrown into space is the one that sets the villains free. The other rocket still activates the fault, and Supes flies around saving everyone, but Lois is fine. She escapes the gas station and breaks down to be met by Lois and then Jimmy at the end. This would be nothing on the scale of the overhaul of part 2, just correcting the moments regarded as the weakest. I'm thinking the theatrical cut with "Can You Read My Mind" replaced with just the score, and the turning back the world ending removed. Also a teaser with the villains release would be added here. This would then effect my cut of part 2 with the villains release having already been used, So after the credits we would go straight to the Daily Planet. The recap would also need a little alteration too. This isn't a definite, as I love the movie as is, but the more I think about it I am leaning that way. As my favourite movie it feels weird to want to take the knife to it, but I think it could work well. Any thoughts? While I love Reeve's reaction as Superman to Lois' death (still gives me goosebumps even after seeing it numerous times) as a whole I think both films would work better without the time reversal. If you are trying to recreate Donner's vision then I say take it out, why?, well Donner was trying to create a film serial format, which is why Superman II was to be released 6 months later, so STM shouldn't play as its own movie but as part I of II, meaning your biggest beat in that film should really be the cliff hanger ending in preparation for the next instalment, just like the film serials that Donner was trying to emulate. Also time reversal is a cop out, unless you have some major consequences as a result of the time reversal and they pay off through out Part II. There is no scene in II where Superman realises time reversal caused all the problems, and no real payoff for it, why does Jor-El bother to warn Superman against, and what were the consequences of his actions. Why can't he reverse time, just because? Not good enough. It also doesn't work as an ending to the second film. Mank stated he wanted Superman to turn the world back at the end of part II as a F U to his father, but Supes is supposed to have grown at the end of part II, so it never made sense that he would disobey the orders of his father who just sacrificed himself for his son and just reverse time anyway. I like that he can't fix everything at the end of part II and just has to deal with it. That is also why the magical kiss annoyed me. I have also always wanted to edit out the 'Can You Read My Mind' scene from STM, I really hate it and always skip it. |
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Post by booshman on Sept 5, 2012 0:07:56 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 5, 2012 15:02:30 GMT -5
Found the changes fascinating in this, though there's so many good moments that also get taken out, that it's hard to envision more pluses than minuses resulting from their omissions.
Still, admire the sheer effort and time it must have taken to try this out.
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Sept 5, 2012 16:02:20 GMT -5
I love the Lex, Otis and MT stuff in both films. The play on words etc, all the stuff in the KOP of STM and then in the RIC of II.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 5, 2012 21:31:57 GMT -5
I love the Lex, Otis and MT stuff in both films. The play on words etc, all the stuff in the KOP of STM and then in the RIC of II. Glad SOMEONE is on my side on this, lol. Seriously, I think that once the Donner Cut was released and most (if not all) of Lester's camp was removed, now everyone is ganging up on Luthor and his cronies. |
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Sept 6, 2012 2:00:43 GMT -5
Yea, it's all great stuff. I genuinely like everything they do across the two films. Shame MT and Otis weren't in II more, guess there was nothing for them to do after the escape. So, thanks to the RIC at leased there is more with MT.
I even like the mission control guys now after seeing the RIC.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 6, 2012 2:03:39 GMT -5
The first time I saw STM, I'll admit that Luthor and company drove me crazy with the camp... but when SII came out and I saw how Luthor played out against the villains in the Donner scenes, I thought it a stroke of genius of how Donner had all these different conflicting tones that SHOULDN'T have worked--- but did (to a degree) and would have worked far more, had things been kept as Donner/Mank planned after reading the script- with the villains being pg-13 scary and Luthor as the comic relief.... rather than, as Lester would have it, BOTH the villains and Luthor's group being the comedy relief- not to mention the citizens of Metropolis.
In both versions, the comedy is unbalanced. One, intentionally by Lester. The other, unintentionally by Donner being unable to have shot the villains in the remaining scenes the way that they were supposed to have been shot.
It's a giant pity that money wasn't/isn't there for either rotoscoping of alternate takes of the actors or full-blown CGI (on the level of Lord of the Rings with the Gollum) to recreate those missing scenes, and just dub the actors today to do it all as in the Mank script. THAT, I think, would be the way to really finish the Donner cut as meant to be.
Even the best fan cut, sadly, can only go so far with what's available..... *sigh*
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 15, 2012 15:12:54 GMT -5
Booshman, you'd mentioned inviting some ideas for SII- Been mulling over the Mank script over and over again, SOME of the ideas seem like they can be reconstructed, but others seem just too difficult to be doable. On the flip side, always wanted to tweak the Zod/Supes battle. It's a pain (and it still needs adjustments and looks like cheap animation, but trying to figure out how to make it have more dimension) but here's an idea I had for making the 'kick' and the 'toss' a little more powerful in the film- vimeo.com/51466823 |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Oct 15, 2012 19:28:26 GMT -5
Booshman, you'd mentioned inviting some ideas for SII- Been mulling over the Mank script over and over again, SOME of the ideas seem like they can be reconstructed, but others seem just too difficult to be doable. On the flip side, always wanted to tweak the Zod/Supes battle. It's a pain (and it still needs adjustments and looks like cheap animation, but trying to figure out how to make it have more dimension) but here's an idea I had for making the 'kick' and the 'toss' a little more powerful in the film- vimeo.com/51466823Great job there CAM!! GREAT to see you taking a stab at this again!! Those are some good ideas. However, they're a little too fast (I know, I know, I keep saying "speed up the spin" for that shot, but hear me out). Consistency is key. Even though I don't like the speed at which everything moves (ie; real human time), if the speed is increased in one place, it must be increased in all places. Meaning if Zod is gonna fly back that quickly from Supes' kick (which always looked weak IMO, even when I was a kid I thought that), then Supes' kick must be just as fast. The sound effect of the kick should be louder as well to "complete" the effect. However, the problem with this is the fighting is too fast for us to see. In the Japanese anime "Dragonball Z" there are times when the characters are fighting so fast that we don't even see them. We just see "impact clouds" in the sky. Or sometimes we'll see them trading punches and kicks almost like a blur. That being said, for live action, this kind of speed doesn't work. We WANT to see the action. The entire film has built up towards it. If it happens too fast, the audience feels cheated. I've come to terms with this. I mean, I'd still like to SEE the spinning sped up just to see if the effect *could* work, but overall I think seeing it that fast might be out of place with the speed of the rest of the action. If we were to try and use this effect, it would have to be used sparingly. Maybe only 1 time. Similar to another time Superman spun around in a circle much faster than usual.... TBH, I think the only way it would work would be if the speed of Supes' Zod spinning was to gradually increase. the first shot where he picks him up could be tweaked in speed *slightly* after 1 or 2 revolutions. Cut to reaction shot from the crowd, back to the medium shot of Supes spinning Zod, with further increase in speed. Next reaction shot of crowd. Next medium shot spinning that's even further sped up. Last reaction shot from crowd, then the shot of Supes letting Zod go (which would also be sped up). However, whatever speed Zod is spinning at this point is the speed he must fly away at as well. Meaning the shot of Zod flying away must be just as fast. The problem with this is, it would mess up the audio and the music. The sound would have to be rebuilt. But there is another solution without any changes to the audio/music. Keep the audio as is, but make it seem like Zod flew MUCH further away. Basically, create a new shot or 2 of Zod flying back at a much faster speed. And have the neon Coca-Cola sign further away. So when he does crash into it, it seems like he was flung back a lot further away from the action. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 15, 2012 20:35:55 GMT -5
Thanks much for the feedback, Tyler! Much appreciated.... this is the ONLY place where I would think anyone would be even remotely interested in these attempts, so after working for hours on a couple of seconds, it's easy to lose all sense of objectivity if it's any improvement at all or looks too fake and is going in the wrong direction!
I hear you on speed..... it's really weird, once I set up the part where Zod flies out of the frame (from the ground)- it's really amazing how the distance and placement of every frame either gives more of a sense of momentum- or none at all (I had one earlier version that was much slower- more 'real time', another too fast).
I know it's not quite done- and I was/ am going to try to do the 'time strobe blur' that you reccomended for the long shot as he speeds up- to try to match the 'blur' that we saw in the theatrical when Supes does the alleyway change.
One thing that really prompted taking a new stab at it is seeing it on HD and noticing NEW things that Lester put in, that totally pissed me off. Apparently, that idiot lady character who's laughing in the car looks to be EATING a piece of chicken while Supes is spinning Zod around....arg! (This made the 'of course he's Jewish' lady seem fine by comparison)
No reverence to the material at all....ugh. Donner had a sense of humor to the work, but he knew that the heroics needed to be taken seriously. I had to at least get rid of that character (thus, the police car turned on its side- which is part of my own cut later- which covers her up).... and I'm trying to find subsitute images to the laughing crowd reaction shots that Lester put in as Zod is being spun around. Ug.
On another note, I am also experimenting with trying to emulate scenes that Mank wrote 'as written'- (ie- Supes hit into the Coca Cola sign, not Zod.... Non knocked into the Statue of Liberty instead).... even though it's tough figuring out how to get EVERYTHING Mank originally wrote in.
On the flip side, I'm finding that there ARE tiny bits that I like that Lester put in- like tossing the concrete slab at Supes and him destroying it with his heat vision, but if it wasn't going to be borderline scary/intense as Donner was going to have it- then I just wish Lester didn't feel the need to go over the top with his sense of humor during what was supposed to be the most dramatic part of the film.
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Ridley should've thrown out the people from the preview audience that he talks about during one of the making of docs. 
