atp
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Post by atp on Apr 8, 2020 14:06:15 GMT -5
That music when the "real" Jor El materialises....
Gives me goose bumps.
It's like seeing a ghost.
Amazing work.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 8, 2020 15:14:08 GMT -5
That music when the "real" Jor El materialises.... Gives me goose bumps. It's like seeing a ghost. Amazing work. What I find interesting in the RDC is how much was changed from the script. This is what I read from a script before seeing the RDC: In the script, CLARK turns, stares back, JOR-EL'S face grows larger. Hand reaches out toward his son, the index finger extended, his expression almost mystical.
JOR-EL
The Kryptonian prophesy will be at last
fulfilled. The son becomes the father – the father becomes the son. Goodbye forever, Kal-El. Remember me, my son...CLARK starts to speak, but JOR-EL'S eyes suddenly come ablaze with energy, riveting him to the spot.
Two dazzling white arcs of light shoot into CLARK, racking his body with involuntary vibrations.
CAMERA PUSHES IN on JOR-EL'S face, straining to summon up the suicidal energy, until only his blinding eyes are in the frame.466G ANGLE ON CLARK His body distended with the transfer of energy. The force of it almost physically unbearable. CLARK'S own eyes suddenly seem to burst apart, as for a split second he sees:
466H ANGLE ON JOR-EL - CLARK'S POV
For an instant, JOR-EL actually stands before his son – a serene smile on his face, his arm extended in farewell. Just as suddenly - he disappears.
466I BACK TO CLARK
Father!...466J WIDE ANGLE
Total silence. The only things visible: The throbbing green crystal in the mechanism and the lifeless body of CLARK on the floor, a strange aura pulsating out from within his body.To me, it's pretty powerful. I wonder how things changed to what we saw. I think the script suggested something much stronger- but given the short window of time Donner had with Brando- to his credit, he did say he would have brought Brando back (if he could) to make a better result. But the jury is still out on whether or not takes existed already that Donner shot to make a better final scene... |
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Post by booshman on Apr 11, 2020 11:05:13 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 11, 2020 13:50:02 GMT -5
WOW!!! Awesome.... Makes me wonder- new planning? If adding the suit to Supes when he de-powers & the clothes come back (Lester version)- then it does make a bit more sense when adding the suit reappearing for the repowering. Also, if the suit is added to the RDC depowering- then the Lester closeups of Lois in gown are easier to use.... interesting...  |
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Post by atp on Apr 11, 2020 14:13:29 GMT -5
Awesome.
Are you going to keep the Lester version of the crystal chamber? Or the Donner version?
The theatrical was more traumatic, but maybe because I was 8 when I saw it!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 11, 2020 17:09:21 GMT -5
Awesome. Are you going to keep the Lester version of the crystal chamber? Or the Donner version? The theatrical was more traumatic, but maybe because I was 8 when I saw it! The sad thing about the Donner version is that it just didn't have the elements shot to really execute it as written! Lois' reaction shots are really the front and center of that scene as written. She screams when Jor-el's angry face appears at her (not shot) and at the end of it, Lois is in tears for what she did. It's not Donner's fault (or Thau's) in this case- and it was cool to at least see what else was shot with Reeve and Brando- but without the Lois closeups that Lester got to shoot for his version, the scene emotionally really has a giant gaping whole in the center of it. |
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Post by booshman on Apr 12, 2020 8:19:16 GMT -5
WOW!!! Awesome.... Makes me wonder- new planning? If adding the suit to Supes when he de-powers & the clothes come back (Lester version)- then it does make a bit more sense when adding the suit reappearing for the repowering. Also, if the suit is added to the RDC depowering- then the Lester closeups of Lois in gown are easier to use.... interesting... I think the suit appearing out of nowhere was established in the first film when he jumps out the window, so I'm having that as my precedent for the suit coming back in the repowering. Awesome. Are you going to keep the Lester version of the crystal chamber? Or the Donner version? The theatrical was more traumatic, but maybe because I was 8 when I saw it! Lester. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 12, 2020 19:38:01 GMT -5
WOW!!! Awesome.... Makes me wonder- new planning? If adding the suit to Supes when he de-powers & the clothes come back (Lester version)- then it does make a bit more sense when adding the suit reappearing for the repowering. Also, if the suit is added to the RDC depowering- then the Lester closeups of Lois in gown are easier to use.... interesting... I think the suit appearing out of nowhere was established in the first film when he jumps out the window, so I'm having that as my precedent for the suit coming back in the repowering. Awesome. Are you going to keep the Lester version of the crystal chamber? Or the Donner version? The theatrical was more traumatic, but maybe because I was 8 when I saw it! Lester. The Lester chamber depowering was complete- I can totally get why that would be preferred, over the really incomplete RDC chamber depowering. What I don't understand is why Thau didn't think to pay for rotoscoping to use Kidder's reaction shots- if it was budget, it's understandable.... but that chamber depowering not only lacks Lois' closeups--- Clark's closeups are also repetitive and don't really add anything after a few seconds... again, I don't blame Donner for stuff that wasn't shot, but it really was one of the more disappointing scenes from the RDC... pity they couldn't figure out another solution to fully execute it. |
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Post by atp on Apr 13, 2020 2:02:45 GMT -5
It's disgraceful that we were all fed a lie about Donner's S2 footage being almost all completed.
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Post by booshman on Apr 13, 2020 2:03:00 GMT -5
The Lester chamber depowering was complete- I can totally get why that would be preferred, over the really incomplete RDC chamber depowering. What I don't understand is why Thau didn't think to pay for rotoscoping to use Kidder's reaction shots- if it was budget, it's understandable.... but that chamber depowering not only lacks Lois' closeups--- Clark's closeups are also repetitive and don't really add anything after a few seconds... again, I don't blame Donner for stuff that wasn't shot, but it really was one of the more disappointing scenes from the RDC... pity they couldn't figure out another solution to fully execute it. I think it's probably due to having a Donner alternative. Using as little Lester stuff as possible looked to be the mandate for making that cut. The Lester stuff is better and there is no way I'm going to use newly filmed footage of a body double if there is Reeve footage available. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 13, 2020 4:51:31 GMT -5
The Lester chamber depowering was complete- I can totally get why that would be preferred, over the really incomplete RDC chamber depowering. What I don't understand is why Thau didn't think to pay for rotoscoping to use Kidder's reaction shots- if it was budget, it's understandable.... but that chamber depowering not only lacks Lois' closeups--- Clark's closeups are also repetitive and don't really add anything after a few seconds... again, I don't blame Donner for stuff that wasn't shot, but it really was one of the more disappointing scenes from the RDC... pity they couldn't figure out another solution to fully execute it. I think it's probably due to having a Donner alternative. Using as little Lester stuff as possible looked to be the mandate for making that cut. The Lester stuff is better and there is no way I'm going to use newly filmed footage of a body double if there is Reeve footage available. I think the thing that always gets me about the disappointing depowering/ repowering scenes in the RDC are this: #1: Donner was known to be a perfectionist with performances #2: To the producers dismay, Donner reportedly would shoot, shoot, and shoot until it was just right #3: Can't find a single 'bad' performance scene in STM- That being the case--- while it's not impossible that the scenes with Brando & Reeve were rushed (and/or just too early on for refinement or finding the character)--- it would have been nice if there were a bonus disc to have shown the other takes for Brando & Reeve for those two scenes... if they had included those, then it would help rest the case on whether or not it was the footage shot or the editing that made the scenes feel a bit underwhelming and not nearly as powerful as one would have imagined from reading the script. For whatever reason, Reeve and Brando seem out of sync (to me) on some level in the repowering scene- the depowering I was fine with- but it also didn't have the benefit of the scenes that were supposed to lead up to it (as well as the repowering, where it seems incredibly odd pacing wise for Reeve to rush fast to the FOS crystals whereas he looked like was on the edge of exhaustion and despair in the Lester version... the other Donner scenes don't have that odd pacing problem either, so... again.... would have loved the option to see the 'other' takes). |
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Post by atp on Apr 13, 2020 5:19:43 GMT -5
The Lester chamber depowering was complete- I can totally get why that would be preferred, over the really incomplete RDC chamber depowering. What I don't understand is why Thau didn't think to pay for rotoscoping to use Kidder's reaction shots- if it was budget, it's understandable.... but that chamber depowering not only lacks Lois' closeups--- Clark's closeups are also repetitive and don't really add anything after a few seconds... again, I don't blame Donner for stuff that wasn't shot, but it really was one of the more disappointing scenes from the RDC... pity they couldn't figure out another solution to fully execute it. I think it's probably due to having a Donner alternative. Using as little Lester stuff as possible looked to be the mandate for making that cut. The Lester stuff is better and there is no way I'm going to use newly filmed footage of a body double if there is Reeve footage available. Yes. I think it's clear that the 2006 cut was mandated to be the Richard Donner cut. Not the "best" or "ultimate" cut. Simply as close to the version that was shot, using existing footage. Maybe we expected too much from Mr Thau. I think he did the job that was asked of him. |
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Post by atp on Apr 13, 2020 5:21:39 GMT -5
I think it's probably due to having a Donner alternative. Using as little Lester stuff as possible looked to be the mandate for making that cut. The Lester stuff is better and there is no way I'm going to use newly filmed footage of a body double if there is Reeve footage available. I think the thing that always gets me about the disappointing depowering/ repowering scenes in the RDC are this: #1: Donner was known to be a perfectionist with performances #2: To the producers dismay, Donner reportedly would shoot, shoot, and shoot until it was just right #3: Can't find a single 'bad' performance scene in STM- That being the case--- while it's not impossible that the scenes with Brando & Reeve were rushed (and/or just too early on for refinement or finding the character)--- it would have been nice if there were a bonus disc to have shown the other takes for Brando & Reeve for those two scenes... if they had included those, then it would help rest the case on whether or not it was the footage shot or the editing that made the scenes feel a bit underwhelming and not nearly as powerful as one would have imagined from reading the script. For whatever reason, Reeve and Brando seem out of sync (to me) on some level in the repowering scene- the depowering I was fine with- but it also didn't have the benefit of the scenes that were supposed to lead up to it (as well as the repowering, where it seems incredibly odd pacing wise for Reeve to rush fast to the FOS crystals whereas he looked like was on the edge of exhaustion and despair in the Lester version... the other Donner scenes don't have that odd pacing problem either, so... again.... would have loved the option to see the 'other' takes). Who filmed the scenes of Clark walking back to the fortress in the theatrical version? I think those were very well done. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 13, 2020 16:10:24 GMT -5
I think the thing that always gets me about the disappointing depowering/ repowering scenes in the RDC are this: #1: Donner was known to be a perfectionist with performances #2: To the producers dismay, Donner reportedly would shoot, shoot, and shoot until it was just right #3: Can't find a single 'bad' performance scene in STM- That being the case--- while it's not impossible that the scenes with Brando & Reeve were rushed (and/or just too early on for refinement or finding the character)--- it would have been nice if there were a bonus disc to have shown the other takes for Brando & Reeve for those two scenes... if they had included those, then it would help rest the case on whether or not it was the footage shot or the editing that made the scenes feel a bit underwhelming and not nearly as powerful as one would have imagined from reading the script. For whatever reason, Reeve and Brando seem out of sync (to me) on some level in the repowering scene- the depowering I was fine with- but it also didn't have the benefit of the scenes that were supposed to lead up to it (as well as the repowering, where it seems incredibly odd pacing wise for Reeve to rush fast to the FOS crystals whereas he looked like was on the edge of exhaustion and despair in the Lester version... the other Donner scenes don't have that odd pacing problem either, so... again.... would have loved the option to see the 'other' takes). Who filmed the scenes of Clark walking back to the fortress in the theatrical version? I think those were very well done. I could be wrong- it felt like the bit with Clark and the truck was Donner (if they had the truck already rented from the Diner scene during that period, why not?)... But the bit with Clark walking across the snow and the 'pull back' as Lester. If Donner had a 'pull back' with young Clark walking to the FOS I think that would echo the same style. But, since Donner didn't choose to do that with the young Clark walking scenes, I'd think he'd use the same type of compositions to call back to it with Clark walking back. |
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Post by booshman on Apr 14, 2020 23:55:08 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 15, 2020 1:26:00 GMT -5
SO AWESOME...!!!! I don't know if the other members know how much work this entails, even with knowing Aftereffects .... but.... from doing a bit with Aftereffects- I can vouch for the idea that these title effects Booshman are doing are a LOT of work to look as good and accurate as they do!!!! Again, so awesome!!! On another note.... I know it's personal preference but.... Lester credit first before Donners?  |
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Post by atp on Apr 15, 2020 4:52:44 GMT -5
Cannot wait to see the full thing!
What is the plan for the Krypton trial recap? Same as the theatrical S2?
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Post by booshman on Apr 15, 2020 6:02:19 GMT -5
I know it's personal preference but.... Lester credit first before Donners? Someone else mentioned that too. I have 2 versions of the credits, one leading into Paris and the other to the rocket throw. The Paris one has Lester first and the rocket Donner. Cannot wait to see the full thing! What is the plan for the Krypton trial recap? Same as the theatrical S2? It starts theatrical with the flaming turmoil altered to actually be the sun,fades to the Donner Cut as we arrive at the dome for the trial, then back to the theatrical for the Phantom Zone and credits. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 15, 2020 17:55:03 GMT -5
I know it's personal preference but.... Lester credit first before Donners? Someone else mentioned that too. I have 2 versions of the credits, one leading into Paris and the other to the rocket throw. The Paris one has Lester first and the rocket Donner. Cannot wait to see the full thing! What is the plan for the Krypton trial recap? Same as the theatrical S2? It starts theatrical with the flaming turmoil altered to actually be the sun,fades to the Donner Cut as we arrive at the dome for the trial, then back to the theatrical for the Phantom Zone and credits. I always thought it was a strange choice for SII to open having the flaming 'swish'-- and have it NOT be the Krypton sun. On another note- while I loved the alternate closeups of the PZ criminals in the RDC--- if more than one camera was used for the trial--- why didn't Thau just use ALL alternate takes for it? But then again.... I know it's easy to second guess without knowing all the details and restrictions that Thau might have been under .... but still.... just wish better choices were made... |
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Post by booshman on Apr 16, 2020 7:00:56 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 16, 2020 15:34:52 GMT -5
Another great gift! Thanks Booshman!!! As always- the editing is so SMOOTH- that sometimes it's easy to not realize how much work had to be done with the audio & images to make it that way! Really interesting choices you had here- I do understand wanting to 'get to the conversation' and having a faster pace- while including some of the really nice shots that Donner had of Lex and Teschmacher approaching the FOS. I kind of like the mini-dialogue they had looking at the FOS in the distance from the deleted scenes, but I get also not using the deleted for poorer quality, too... At first, I wondered, "why did he use the council member and the crystal instead of Brando"--- but then quickly I realized it made a better transition to re-introduce the crystal as projector (that's also a great bookend to the great 'home movies' sequence you had earlier). I especially liked your choices for the PZ criminals in the glass- and great timing with the music when Zod snaps the crystal in half! On a side note (not really related to the editing but Thau's choice) One thing that Thau did that always irritated (well, still does) was his choice of the fairly green looking background plate for Jor-el at the FOS. While there's some patches of green that existed on the actual set, you never really saw THAT much green but only on that added mnangle- and the architecture looked so different (to me) from the Clark/Jorel FOS scene in STM that I found it jarring. |
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Post by booshman on Apr 16, 2020 16:13:27 GMT -5
Yeah the viewer is there to introduce it for later, the home movies and also one version of the depowering scene. Small floaty head and full body Jor-El are both definite no-no's for my cut.
The deleted scene footage seems a bit like a rehearsal, the line delivery and the on-set sound kill it for me.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 16, 2020 16:38:34 GMT -5
Yeah the viewer is there to introduce it for later, the home movies and also one version of the depowering scene. Small floaty head and full body Jor-El are both definite no-no's for my cut. The deleted scene footage seems a bit like a rehearsal, the line delivery and the on-set sound kill it for me. I could never wrap my head around all the crazy choices made by Thau for such a simple scene for Jor-el. If anything, I thought that it would have been the simplest scenes to re-assemble. You made a lot of bold and interesting choices on this one-- a lot I didn't expect. Fun to rewatch and examine! |
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Post by Kamdan on Apr 17, 2020 13:13:37 GMT -5
Wonder if there’s a way to utilize Brando reading Trees or another reading while utilizing an outtake of Brando’s disembodied head from the Superman Returns documentaries. Perhaps the crystal display could have images of trees on display. Just thinking of ideas since I’m not too keen on Jor-El having Elders encoded in his teachings since they all sided against him.
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Post by atp on Apr 17, 2020 13:54:47 GMT -5
Yeah the viewer is there to introduce it for later, the home movies and also one version of the depowering scene. Small floaty head and full body Jor-El are both definite no-no's for my cut. The deleted scene footage seems a bit like a rehearsal, the line delivery and the on-set sound kill it for me. Agreed. Full-body Jor-El should ONLY appear once, and that is when he appears and gives Clark his power back. |
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