Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 8:36:52 GMT -5
I had fun watching it too (seen it 3 times now) and yes we can all pick holes in ALL of our favourite movies...but I'm of the opinion that if we don't critique the writing of current movies we can't expect the writers to up their game for the next installments. Exactly. If we all just sit around eating up mediocrity where's the incentive for studios and filmmakers to push the boundaries of creativity and quality? No wonder we have so much crap now and so many fewer great films and characters like the ones we grew up with. Where are the new characters like Vader and Plissken and Max and Indy and Ripley and Robocop were in the 80s? Now they just get rehashed and rebooted. Some of those characters were created specifically through screenplays and not based directly and exactly on anything that had come before. Sure there were influences but they weren't copies like today's rebooted heroes and villains. Now we have a generation of actors getting more hand me downs instead of fresh characters and films. If nobody pushed those creative boundaries like they used to we might not even HAVE the superhero movies we have today. We'd still have cheap low budget thinly written fare like we had decades ago. If a Donner didn't see more in Superman some of you might not have a MOS now. We wouldn't have had Raimis Spider-Man or Xmen or Blade. Instead of Blade maybe we'd have more crap like Steel or Spawn. Blade wasn't perfect but it represented a serious shift in the 90s. I'd say if we are paying our hard earned money maybe we have a right to complain. It's not like we all watch these films for free. We're making these people rich. They should have to earn our dollars not just expect it. They sure as shit aren't going to give us out money back if we didn't like something. |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 6, 2013 8:46:40 GMT -5
MoS over-promised from the very first trailer.
The choice of trailer music was sending out a very clear impression of what this movie was supposed to be like, and it turned out to fail to deliver.
By using trailer music like "Journey to the Line" and the "Lord of the Rings" music and "Elegy/Storm", they were painting a picture that MoS was going to be something special. Magical and slightly ethereal. Even "spiritual" in a way. Not like all the other superhero films.
That music itself was already over-promising.
What we got was just another generic superhero movie crossed with Independence Day.
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 6, 2013 9:31:13 GMT -5
I had fun watching it too (seen it 3 times now) and yes we can all pick holes in ALL of our favourite movies...but I'm of the opinion that if we don't critique the writing of current movies we can't expect the writers to up their game for the next installments. Nothing wrong with being critical. Nothing wrong with having a voice that may or may not be heard to provide suggestions for improvement. But the dead horse doesn't look like a horse anymore. And as for the real world dynamic. You guys are going pick apart anything and no one is going to stop you. I'm certainly not going make a debate out of it because there's nothing to debate. All I'm saying is that high expectations lead to a greater disappointment. I can see it in the endless polls comparing Man of Steel to anything from Superman III and Tyler Perry movies. I can see it in ATP's post about the trailers "over-promising" as if we were all mislead. Bottom line is a lot of us had high expectations and some were really disappointed. And you know what, that's perfectly cool. We are Superman fans. It's ok. Come to NY, guys. Me and the guys will give you all hugs.  |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 9:55:54 GMT -5
I'd rather have my money back than a hug. You know that money most of us payed to see the film so we can now have opinions on it. But that ain't going to happen.  Like I said its ridiculous to tell people to stop picking at things when the filmmakers sold their film as seeing the effects of these beings dropped into the real world--our world. It's even more silly since they sold it as Superman being broken for a long time and how they were going to fix him. Bold claims. So if they don't deliver on what they promised for our money we're being picky and overly critical? Please. They should have eased up on real world mumbo jumbo and just delivered a fun film that also takes the material seriously. Like Marvel. Instead they decided to do a deeper more real world take and missed the mark. They talked about all the character depth but didn't have the skill to execute it. A bunch of mediocre talent sold the film as something they couldn't deliver. Is that their fault or our fault? If youre going to make such bold claims about your film maybe you should put the work in to see that it lives up to the hype. People have been picking at the Reeve films and SR for how long? I think MOS's flaws can be talked about for a few weeks. The horse isn't dead yet. I'm certainly not going to tell anyone to stop talking because I'm tired of it. It's a discussion board. We discusses. I didn't see the sign that said it had to be limited to good or bad. Don't like it? don't read it. Or do. Whatever. Say whatever. But other people are going to say whatever too. |
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 6, 2013 10:20:51 GMT -5
Thanks clarifying for that. I didn't know people had independent minds and can do as they pleased. I was under the impression they weren't. So yes, thanks for that.
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 6, 2013 10:25:59 GMT -5
It's not our fault that the film promised stuff and didn't deliver. It's like blaming victims of fraud for being victims of fraud.
If those early trailers were going to be honest, they would have shown much more stuff about the codex and the endless buildings being destroyed and the terraforming and the spaceships and the tentacles and the CGI cartoon characters fighting etc.
Instead, they deliberately concealed all that stuff, and made it look like we were going to get something poetic and classic.
Those early "poetic" trailers were deliberately crafted to catch us, the people who have long attention spans, and were prepared to wait months for the movie. Then, as the release approached, the later trailers were much more generic superhero/action movie trailers. That was deliberately designed to grab the modern retard audiences who with short attention spans.
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 6, 2013 10:40:25 GMT -5
It's not our fault that the film promised stuff and didn't deliver. It's like blaming victims of fraud for being victims of fraud. If those early trailers were going to be honest, they would have shown much more stuff about the codex and the endless buildings being destroyed and the terraforming and the spaceships and the tentacles and the CGI cartoon characters fighting etc. Instead, they deliberately concealed all that stuff, and made it look like we were going to get something poetic and classic. Those early "poetic" trailers were deliberately crafted to catch us, the people who have long attention spans, and were prepared to wait months for the movie. Then, as the release approached, the later trailers were much more generic superhero/action movie trailers. That was deliberately designed to grab the modern retard audiences who with short attention spans. You're certainly acting like you were a victim of fraud. You have been cheated! Bamboozled! Run amok! |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 11:04:43 GMT -5
Thanks clarifying for that. I didn't know people had independent minds and can do as they pleased. I was under the impression they weren't. So yes, thanks for that. No problem. Of course it's not like you see the other side saying "stop talking about how much you love MOS. Its beating a dead horse." Funny that. Seems like certain people are the ones getting more butthurt over opinions they're tired of hearing. I await your "stop beating a dead horse and complaining about Superman II" thread. But I guess since that flick doesn't give you that "shiney new toy at Christmas feeling" we might not get it? |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 11:07:24 GMT -5
It's not our fault that the film promised stuff and didn't deliver. It's like blaming victims of fraud for being victims of fraud. If those early trailers were going to be honest, they would have shown much more stuff about the codex and the endless buildings being destroyed and the terraforming and the spaceships and the tentacles and the CGI cartoon characters fighting etc. Instead, they deliberately concealed all that stuff, and made it look like we were going to get something poetic and classic. Those early "poetic" trailers were deliberately crafted to catch us, the people who have long attention spans, and were prepared to wait months for the movie. Then, as the release approached, the later trailers were much more generic superhero/action movie trailers. That was deliberately designed to grab the modern retard audiences who with short attention spans. You're certainly acting like you were a victim of fraud. You have been cheated! Bamboozled! Run amok! You're right. Shame on ATP for being open minded enough to give a couple of bullshitters trading away wooden nickels a chance. Shame on him! |
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Post by atp on Jul 6, 2013 12:16:01 GMT -5
Watch this trailer again, and tell me if you can honestly reconcile that with the movie we ended up seeing.
Luckily, MoS wasn't nearly as crap as Star Wars Episode 1, but the trailer pulled the same type of bait-and-switch on us.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 12:34:07 GMT -5
Much like Superman Returns MOS was sold on ideas it didn't really do a good job with. SR was said to be about Superman trying to fit into a world that had moved on without him and we only partly got that. It started on these ideas and then kinda went off in another direction. Other big films have had the same thing happen.
Much like The Amazing Spider-Man MOS did indeed pull a bit of a bait and switch. WB knew what they were doing when they put Nolans name on this flick. They were selling that stamp of quality his productions are know for to the causal fans who liked his films.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 12:37:29 GMT -5
To be fair if you built an image in your head of what you thought the film would be like based on the very first teaser you're probably wired to the moon anyway. So the film was basically mis-sold based on the trailer music it used? that's the best one yet, gimme a break. The first teaser was basically their way of saying look we're addressing the 'human' side of Superman, nothing less nothing more, and they did that in the film.
It might not be your fault, but it's entirely your problem, to those who enjoyed it we can at least have some kind of satisfaction. You have to realize trailers are about marketing the film too. But as I said before ATP. I really don't know why it would bother you since so much of what was in said trailers was retarded stupid and crap to you.
When it gets to the stage of talking about money back because a film didn't satisfy someone's particular demands it makes me wonder how much these people get out. I've sat through some awful films and it's never really bothered me, going to the cinema to see a newly released film is always a gamble.
Best case scenario is a sequel is green lit, they make improvements, it's better than Man of Steel, though I'm betting one or two would rather see any potential sequel bomb.
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Post by atp on Jul 6, 2013 12:44:14 GMT -5
If Kryptonian colonisers came to Earth 20,000 years ago, wouldn't they have already terraformed the planet?
So how come Earth's atmosphere isn't like Krypton's?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 12:47:39 GMT -5
Ah yet another excuse pointing the finger at the viewer instead of the filmmakers. Who are you to tell someone what went on in anyones head? How is it a problem of me or ATP building an image in our heads when the filmmakers SAID what the film was about over and over again (a new ingenious never before done idea with Superman) and they didn't deliver on it? It's my fault when metropolis gets trashed and we don't see metropolis and the world respond? We don't get the fear of a world that knows godlike beings are out there that might not be very nice. We don't see them pick up the pieces from a super powered brawl. Lombards trying to get tickets for a fucking date at the end like nothing happened. The film did a piss poor job following up on itself. The trailers sold real drama that the film didn't live up to.
I expected exactly what they talked about. But they half assed it. I didn't want a Donner film or anything like that. A lot of people were willing to give a new direction a chance but the execution was sloppy. That's the problem.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 12:56:19 GMT -5
But they didn't set out to specifically cater to yours or ATP's demands.
"Yet another excuse" blah blah blah. Save it, reading the same condescending shite over and over again is as fun as a heart attack and as boring as SR.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 13:04:45 GMT -5
All I "demanded" was a good film. A good time. I "expected" exactly what they promised and sold the film as. Nothing more. Not everybody is going to bend over for a mediocre film or make sure they loved it no matter what. Plenty of people here were on board for the new direction whatever it was but thought it was weak. Forgive us for expecting quality writing, directing, etc. |
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Post by atp on Jul 6, 2013 13:05:06 GMT -5
But they didn't set out to specifically cater to yours or ATP's demands. Actually, neither of us made any "demands". The film-makers themselves chose to make certain claims when building up the movie. Nobody forced them to make those claims. The fact that we believed those claims, and expected the film to live up to them, is hardly making "demands". Is it? |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 13:11:06 GMT -5
Yeah I forget the part where I was the one who demanded Clark kill Zod so he could learn something from it. I forget when I demanded this film show what it would be like is a Superman arrived in our world tomorrow. Clark kills Zod to experience some kind of character growth? Ok guys I can understand that. They proceeded to gloss right the fuck over Zods death and we see Superman and a General cracking wise. Goyer and Snyder were the ones that demanded Zod died the way he did for a specific reason. I've always said I could go along with that. But they did fuck all with it beyond a scream that sounded like something from a prison rape.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 13:12:09 GMT -5
Ofcourse you didn't, that's why you didn't like it. They made a film you guys didn't like, imagine that, going to the cinema to see a film and not enjoying it, that's practically unheard of . ATP you were never going to like it anyway, like I said before, you were throwing around the word 'retarded' when the trailers were coming out so I'm not sure why you're suddenly trying to convince people you were on board and looking forward to it. "bend over or make sure they love it no matter what". Stick your concescending tone right up your arse |
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 6, 2013 13:13:16 GMT -5
Thanks clarifying for that. I didn't know people had independent minds and can do as they pleased. I was under the impression they weren't. So yes, thanks for that. No problem. Of course it's not like you see the other side saying "stop talking about how much you love MOS. Its beating a dead horse." Funny that. Seems like certain people are the ones getting more butthurt over opinions they're tired of hearing. I await your "stop beating a dead horse and complaining about Superman II" thread. But I guess since that flick doesn't give you that "shiney new toy at Christmas feeling" we might not get it? You generalize too much and I understand why, but I rarely join in on the MOS praising and Superman II bashing. I don't have a side per se. I'm just calling it as I see it. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 13:16:12 GMT -5
No problem. Of course it's not like you see the other side saying "stop talking about how much you love MOS. Its beating a dead horse." Funny that. Seems like certain people are the ones getting more butthurt over opinions they're tired of hearing. I await your "stop beating a dead horse and complaining about Superman II" thread. But I guess since that flick doesn't give you that "shiney new toy at Christmas feeling" we might not get it? You generalize too much and I understand why, but I rarely join in on the MOS praising and Superman II bashing. I don't have a side per se. I'm just calling it as I see it. Maybe you need to get your glasses checked? Generalize? Dont think so. We've so done this type of discussion for YEARS. And now you have the urge to complain? Imagine that. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 13:20:21 GMT -5
Ofcourse you didn't, that's why you didn't like it. They made a film you guys didn't like, imagine that, going to the cinema to see a film and not enjoying it, that's practically unheard of . ATP you were never going to like it anyway, like I said before, you were throwing around the word 'retarded' when the trailers were coming out so I'm not sure why you're suddenly trying to convince people you were on board and looking forward to it. "bend over or make sure they love it no matter what". Stick your concescending tone right up your arse Says the guy who tells people whats going in their heads. The two faces don't suit you Kris.  I think we would have liked the film more if it wasn't such a half assed effort. I know it frosts your nuts that not everybody did but its ok, champ. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 13:21:42 GMT -5
Incidentally, you both know I was saying that the film wasn't tailored to suit both of you specifically, you both know that I wasn't talking about genuine demands made. In the end the studios won't give a shit that you didn't like it with the money it will make them. Just like your beloved Nolan won't be too worried about my thinking his last Batman film was a bit of a turd. Any way carry on pissing in the wind. You must be a laugh a minute on a night out. |
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 6, 2013 13:24:37 GMT -5
You get off on this stuff, Metallo. You really do. And you do generalize. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is generalized. But hey, this is entertaining so lead the way. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 13:27:54 GMT -5
I'm not the guy heckbent on being the frontline of the MOS defense brigade. Seems to be bothering you more than most. I've been having a pretty good laugh.
I didn't care that it wasn't tailored specifically to me. Thats fine. And yeah it's made a lot of money. That was expected too. But WBs money only vision has put the non distant second for years when they want to be in the lead. This time they were lucky to have a Nolan involved to slap his name on and Bay like visuals they could knock off.
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