SteveS
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Post by SteveS on Jul 21, 2013 7:08:18 GMT -5
Am I the only person here who thinks the DC movies and the FOX/Sony Marvel movies blow the Disney Marvel movies out of the water?
Frankly, I have full confidence in whatever direction Snyder, Goyer, and Nolan decide to go with Superman and Batman after the Dark Knight Trilogy and MOS, which IMHO are 4 of my favorite movies ever. I do wish the Superman/Batman movie wasn't so soon and they did one more solo Superman movie, but now I am starting to read Superman and Batman may be nemesis's in the upcoming movie. I imagine the movie will still be a Superman movie in the same sense that Dark Knight was a Batman movie. There will likely be a main villain like Lex or Brainiac or Darkseid. Batman will serve as a secondary enemy to Superman that will develop much in the same way that Harvey Dent/Two Face was handled in TDK. By the end of the movie, I am sure that Supes and Batman will decide it best to cooperate with one another rather than to be enemies, which will lead into the Justice League movie.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 8:02:57 GMT -5
Yup. Marvel needs to watch X-Men The Last Stand, Spider-Man 3, X-Men Origins Wolverine, Amazing Spider-Man, Ghost Rider 1 and 2, Fantastic Four 1 and 2, Jonah Hex, Green Lantern, Catwoman, and Constantine to see how its done!
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 8:06:08 GMT -5
It's great in a broad sense for everyone who wants comic book films to be profitable so that they keep on making them. It's greater for people who loved (enough) of what was done by Goyer and Snyder in MOS. To me, MOS feels like 'Smallville= the big budget version", in the sense that it's just a character that just feels so different from what I've grown up with, that its success feels very detached from me... TDKR kind of felt that way, too- with some of its story choices. As far as the success goes- Would I rather this have happened to SR? Absolutely, but it is what it is- and I wish somebody would FINALLY say at WB: "Ok, we made a ton of money with MOS- we'll ok that official Donner recut crazy asian man has been bitching and moaning about for so long." At least I'll give Goyer this: He almost always has some interesting ideas in his scripts, and he (like Snyder) is a genuine comic fan, so I think there'll be SOMETHING worth checking out in MOS 2. Bale coming back would have been fun, (or even Gordon-Levitt), but oh well.... Best bet now is to hope WB gets lucky and picks someone with Nolans level of talent for another movie. Like you said at least WB is making them now. I guess they will get a different director for Flash. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 8:20:02 GMT -5
Wonder if Marvel had not led the way would they have gone this route so soon? This really ought to have happened 3 years ago with Routh and Bale. Imagine that film with both Williams and Elfman's iconic scores? Anyway, I'll see the results before getting excited. Nope. Remember in 2008 when WB tried their lame George Miller version of JLA around the time Iron Man was filming? It was unrelated to Batman Begins or Superman Returns even though a lot of people figured it should have had Bale and Routh. The flick fell apart and WB put the idea on the shelf. They didn't start to actively pursue a shared universe JL movie until it was clear Marvel was doing it. Avengers made a mint an now they are rushing to make it happen. If WB really had ambition like some people say we would have seen a Justice League 20 years ago. Maybe with Reeve and Keaton. The characters already had backstory laid down so that they mattered. Tell me some people wouldn't have found that awesome. They would have been pushing the film fx boundaries the way Spielberg and Cameron were back then. But it wasn't even on their radar. If anything WB didn't see a team up movie as viable because they felt they could make more money doing more solo films. They always said as much. Marvels proved otherwise now they've changed their tune Not my cup of tea, personally. And if it were not for the fact that The Avengers were so good, I'd have grown out of comic book movies for good. This for me too. My interest was not what it was. Maybe I'm getting older, different priorities etc - but something was switched off back in 2006 after Superman IV del. scenes, "Donner" cut and SR all came out. All so underwhelming. I'll see the film for sure but I am not "connected" to it. I wasn't for MoS either (still not) At this point everything's been done. Most of these movies aren't special anymore in concept or execution. By 2006 we'd already seen a lot |
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Post by Scissorpuppy on Jul 21, 2013 8:22:28 GMT -5
Hmmmm... On the surface this is a big deal. Superman and Batman in a film together? Fuck!
But it does feel like jumping the gun abit, they just established Superman, throwing Batman in the mix seems like WB is looking for more box office rather than a sound strategy. Shit 2015 S&B, 2017 JLA, will it be 2018 or 2019 before we get a proper follow up to MOS?
I don't see the point in establishing a whole new take on Superman just to use him in several Super Friends adventures. They could have done that with Routh in the role. But shit... What do I know, I'll be there opening night.
I just hope they cast Batman right, too many Teen Beat looking guys around currently.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 8:29:06 GMT -5
I'd like to see Cavill being Superman as we know him so we can get to know him before he's thrown in with other heroes. Cavill deserves the chance to show what he can do in the role now that the backstory stuff is out if the way. A lot of people cut WB slack because they expected a better sequel. What about Lois and all the other characters and the Clark Kent disguise? All that stuff deserves to be fleshed out better.
Throwing Batman in just looks like they want a bigger gross than a MOS 2 will give them and its the fastest path to a JL movie without risking a solo Batman reboot.
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SteveS
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Post by SteveS on Jul 21, 2013 8:33:03 GMT -5
Yup. Marvel needs to watch X-Men The Last Stand, Spider-Man 3, X-Men Origins Wolverine, Amazing Spider-Man, Ghost Rider 1 and 2, Fantastic Four 1 and 2, Jonah Hex, Green Lantern, Catwoman, and Constantine to see how its done!  I actually enjoyed X3, Spidey 3, and Wolverine more than a number of the Disney Marvel movies, even though I would say that none of those 3 movies are what I would consider the gold standard in comic book movies. Yes, Fantastic Four, Green Lantern, Ghost Rider, and Catwoman are terrible movies. In my opinion Man of Steel, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises, Batman 89, Superman Returns, STM, SII, X-Men, X2, X-Men First Class, Spidey 1, and Spidey 2 are the movies I think destroy the Disney Marvel movies. Don't be strawmaning a handful of stinkers that DC and Fox/Sony Marvel have released. Yes, I think that Thor, the Iron Man movies, Captain America, and The Avengers are decent movies. I just don't think they are great and are completely overrated. After seeing each of them, I had an "eh" feeling. Don't get me started on Robert Downey Jr. playing Robert Downey Jr. if you catch my drift. For the record, I thought The Incredible Hulk was FANTASTIC, which is a Disney Marvel movie. Ed Norton was missed in The Avengers. |
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 8:46:06 GMT -5
Well you did like the prequels too, Steve.  The Donner Superman Films don't count. The Salkinds took the initiative in getting those made not WB. WB just happened to be lucky enough to own the comic books at the time. If someone else had owned DC and made the same deal the Salkinds would have delivers the same films. Most of the "good" films you listed had their flaws. The only DC related ones made by WB that I think stand up to Marvel Studios work are Nolans Batflicks. As much as I like Superman Returns Iron Man and Captain America own it. Burton's batman was good but it was also flawed on so many ways. X3 and Spidey 3s receptions and reputations speak for themselves. Marvels films clearly struck a cord. If they hadn't WB wouldn't be so gung ho to copy elements of what they are doing to repeat that success. Fox and Sony are looking to do the same thing however they can. Even the current Spider-Man and Wolverine WANT to be Avengers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 8:48:41 GMT -5
It's great in a broad sense for everyone who wants comic book films to be profitable so that they keep on making them. It's greater for people who loved (enough) of what was done by Goyer and Snyder in MOS. To me, MOS feels like 'Smallville= the big budget version", in the sense that it's just a character that just feels so different from what I've grown up with, that its success feels very detached from me... TDKR kind of felt that way, too- with some of its story choices. As far as the success goes- Would I rather this have happened to SR? Absolutely, but it is what it is- and I wish somebody would FINALLY say at WB: "Ok, we made a ton of money with MOS- we'll ok that official Donner recut crazy asian man has been bitching and moaning about for so long." At least I'll give Goyer this: He almost always has some interesting ideas in his scripts, and he (like Snyder) is a genuine comic fan, so I think there'll be SOMETHING worth checking out in MOS 2. Bale coming back would have been fun, (or even Gordon-Levitt), but oh well.... Like you said at least WB is making them now. I guess they will get a different director for Flash. i personally hope we get nothing of the sort, I've had enough of his tosh after TDK, TDKR and Inception. Whoever gets the gig I want them to give us a comic book film that feels like a comic book film and not a film about a comic book hero whilst masquerading as lawrence of arabia |
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SteveS
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Post by SteveS on Jul 21, 2013 9:12:25 GMT -5
Well you did like the prequels too, Steve. The Donner Superman Films don't count. The Salkinds took the initiative in getting those made not WB. WB just happened to be lucky enough to own the comic books at the time. If someone else had owned DC and made the same deal the Salkinds would have delivers the same films. Most of the "good" films you listed had their flaws. The only DC related ones made by WB that I think stand up to Marvel Studios work are Nolans Batflicks. As much as I like Superman Returns Iron Man and Captain America own it. Burton's batman was good but it was also flawed on so many ways. X3 and Spidey 3s receptions and reputations speak for themselves. Marvels films clearly struck a cord. If they hadn't WB wouldn't be so gung ho to copy elements of what they are doing to repeat that success. Fox and Sony are looking to do the same thing however they can. Even the current Spider-Man and Wolverine WANT to be Avengers. Out of respect for the thread, I will leave the prequels comment alone. Well, if the Donner films don't count then neither any of the Marvel films BEFORE Disney bought them. Superman is still DC Comics regardless of who paid for each production. In 1978, Superman was a DC Comics character. It counts as a DC movie....and it owns anything Marvel has ever done as a movie. While I disagree about Iron Man and Captain America owning Superman Returns, I will admit that those two movies are the two best of the Disney Marvel movies save for Incredible Hulk. Now if you are going into Iron Man 2 and 3 territory, those two movies were actually closer to awful than they were to Superman Returns, especially Iron Man 3. I actually see very little in terms of similarities between the Disney Marvel films and what it seems DC is trying to do now. Granted we are only 1 film into the new DC phase with MOS. But MOS is darker (the movie was dark rather than Superman himself, to be clear), more dramatic, and takes itself seriously....much like the Nolan Dark Knight trilogy. The tone of the Disney Marvel flicks is WAY different. And especially with the Iron Man films, they were trying to drop too many one liners and jokes. Iron Man 3 was literally OVERRUN with one liners and stupid gag jokes, not to mention had a stupid god awful villain(s). If DC is trying to copy anything, it is just maybe the formula of creating a universe in which they all exist, introducing each character in his own movies and gradually bringing them all together for the tentpole team up movie. The reason why they are trying to duplicate that is because of the amount of money Avengers brought in. No one can deny that. The similarities end there though. To me the X-Men films might as well be part of the DC Universe, because I like their more serious, and more intense tone. |
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Post by everybodysrockin on Jul 21, 2013 9:39:07 GMT -5
I think this is great news. Is it a little rushed? Yes. Would I like to have seen one more solo Superman movie before jumping into a team up movie? Definitely. But, as a comic book fan, I can't help but be excited for FINALLY getting to see Batman and Superman in a movie together.
I think they really need to bring a writer in from outside the TDK Trilogy bubble to work on the script. I've always thought that Goyer has a lot of great ideas, but, left to his own devices, can be a pretty weak writer. Goyer working with another writer gets you something like BB and TDK. Goyer writing full tilt on his own gives you Blade Trinity.
WB has a lot riding on this. If done right, this could be AMAZING. Count me in.
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SteveS
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Post by SteveS on Jul 21, 2013 9:46:25 GMT -5
I think this is great news. Is it a little rushed? Yes. Would I like to have seen one more solo Superman movie before jumping into a team up movie? Definitely. But, as a comic book fan, I can't help but be excited for FINALLY getting to see Batman and Superman in a movie together. I think they really need to bring a writer in from outside the TDK Trilogy bubble to work on the script. I've always thought that Goyer has a lot of great ideas, but, left to his own devices, can be a pretty weak writer. Goyer working with another writer gets you something like BB and TDK. Goyer writing full tilt on his own gives you Blade Trinity. WB has a lot riding on this. If done right, this could be AMAZING. Count me in. I said it earlier that I think Bruce Wayne/Batman will be handled kind of like Harvey Dent was handled in TDK. He will serve as an opponent to Superman in the movie (a secondary one to the main villain), and there will also be a human story of Bruce Wayne trying to help the city recover from the devastation brought by Zod with Superman not entirely trusting him or something along those lines. The difference will be that at the end of the movie, Superman and Batman will decide to join forces rather than Batman staying an enemy of his...and also he won't die. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 9:56:18 GMT -5
Definitely. That's how I imagine it going, too. Batman is MOS2's main bad guy but there will another canon villain that will be the real, true villain at the end that they team up against.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 9:57:55 GMT -5
It also depends on what exactly they are doing. Sounds more like Superman vs Batman now which I'm not as keen on. The line they quoted at Comic-Con is from Dark knight returns which i absolutely hate for the way Miller bastardized Superman. They need someone else on this with Goyer though. I'd even settle for them replacing Snyder if only any flaws in the film won't be magnified to the same extent, or we might just get a better film overall |
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 11:29:21 GMT -5
Well you did like the prequels too, Steve. The Donner Superman Films don't count. The Salkinds took the initiative in getting those made not WB. WB just happened to be lucky enough to own the comic books at the time. If someone else had owned DC and made the same deal the Salkinds would have delivers the same films. Most of the "good" films you listed had their flaws. The only DC related ones made by WB that I think stand up to Marvel Studios work are Nolans Batflicks. As much as I like Superman Returns Iron Man and Captain America own it. Burton's batman was good but it was also flawed on so many ways. X3 and Spidey 3s receptions and reputations speak for themselves. Marvels films clearly struck a cord. If they hadn't WB wouldn't be so gung ho to copy elements of what they are doing to repeat that success. Fox and Sony are looking to do the same thing however they can. Even the current Spider-Man and Wolverine WANT to be Avengers. Out of respect for the thread, I will leave the prequels comment alone. Well, if the Donner films don't count then neither any of the Marvel films BEFORE Disney bought them. Superman is still DC Comics regardless of who paid for each production. In 1978, Superman was a DC Comics character. It counts as a DC movie....and it owns anything Marvel has ever done as a movie. While I disagree about Iron Man and Captain America owning Superman Returns, I will admit that those two movies are the two best of the Disney Marvel movies save for Incredible Hulk. Now if you are going into Iron Man 2 and 3 territory, those two movies were actually closer to awful than they were to Superman Returns, especially Iron Man 3. I actually see very little in terms of similarities between the Disney Marvel films and what it seems DC is trying to do now. Granted we are only 1 film into the new DC phase with MOS. But MOS is darker (the movie was dark rather than Superman himself, to be clear), more dramatic, and takes itself seriously....much like the Nolan Dark Knight trilogy. The tone of the Disney Marvel flicks is WAY different. And especially with the Iron Man films, they were trying to drop too many one liners and jokes. Iron Man 3 was literally OVERRUN with one liners and stupid gag jokes, not to mention had a stupid god awful villain(s). If DC is trying to copy anything, it is just maybe the formula of creating a universe in which they all exist, introducing each character in his own movies and gradually bringing them all together for the tentpole team up movie. The reason why they are trying to duplicate that is because of the amount of money Avengers brought in. No one can deny that. The similarities end there though. To me the X-Men films might as well be part of the DC Universe, because I like their more serious, and more intense tone. You brought up the non Disney Marvel films not me. I've always given Marvel STUDIOS the credit for their films. Disneys mostly let them do what they want. And even before that Marvel worked with the other studios who had film rights to their characters. They weren't separate. Like I said WB and DC aren't the same thing. DC has no control over what WB does. STM is a movie about a DC character distributed by WB but WB didn't make it. you're trying to lump WB and DC together in a particular way so that all their good stuff gets credit when its not that simple. We're talking about what WB is doing with DC related movies. Not DC based movies in general. I've also never given DC the blame for WBs mistakes. That wouldn't be fair. Green Lantern was clearly WBs attempt to copy Iron Man. Martin Campbell even made the comparisons. So you can't say they've never tried to copy Marvel in terms of style or tone. heck we even got the Gman and the post credits stinger which several non WB/DC movies did before WB ever did it. Green Lantern was their first attempt at an expanded universe and it failed. They're doing the current films in the Nolan style because everything else failed and Nolans films have been WBs only true mega successes. If SR or GL had been huge hits their film universe may have been in the style of those movies. This isn't a case of WB being creative and being realistic and gritty. It's a case of them going with what's safe. That didn't take any kind of artistic vision or genius on the studios part. Theyre own failures trying to do something closer to what Marvel did pushed them in the direction they're going in now. What else did they have? WBs had 20 years to have a shared universe. They didn't start tripping over themselves to do it until Marvel did. It might be one that but its a huge thing that can't be overstated. Nobody had ever really done what Marvel did on the big screen before. They started into uncharted territory before they had the resources of a big company like WB or Disney behind them. And if Iron Man 3 was so bad Steve what does that make MoS. Superman I and II with a Batman Begins paintjob? With some of the thinnest character, false drama, and hollow stakes I've ever seen. It was like a video game where nothing really mattered by the end. |
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 11:42:54 GMT -5
Don't get me started on Robert Downey Jr. playing Robert Downey Jr. if you catch my drift. This is pretty short sighted if you don't know the character. Yeah Downey puts a lot of himself into the role but much of who Downey is FALLS IN LINE with who Tony Stark is anyway. the biggest thing that Downey added that wasn't as prominent before was his own wiseass sense of humor. Stark was traditionally more straight laced than what Downey does but Downey nails Starks genius, his obsessive nature, and his sometimes carefree playboy attitude. Tony Stark CAN be cocky and overconfident and Downey nails that. Look at how obsessed Stark was during Armor Wars. Downey got to play a bit of that in Iron Man 1 and 3 and did a great job Plus Downeys going to understand Starks demons better than anyone. Downey knows exactly what it was like for the character of Anthony Stark when he let his addictions almost ruin his life and his career. There's a lot under the surface that Downey has to tap into and we saw that briefly in all three iron man films. Tony Stark does tend to have self destructive tendencies. Downeys just never going to get the chance to REALLY go there because this is under the Disney umbrella. Favreau got to hint at it being in the periphery in Iron Man but that's all. |
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Post by Paul (ral) on Jul 21, 2013 12:36:09 GMT -5
There's no reason another MOS movie can't come out during 2015 - 2017.
If WB are serious about a shared universe then this has to be seen as them committing. If the characters are going to mix then why not have them go in and out of each others films. heck if we are lucky then they will have their story together to have 3 JL movies played out over the next few years without the need to put all the characters in at once.
Think of MOS2 as JL0
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 21, 2013 12:39:46 GMT -5
After seeing MOS, I was dying to see what George Miller would have come up with instead for his JLA film.
Based on Miller's track record, I would have even have liked to have seen it in comic book or animated form at least.
(Did the script for the abandoned JL ever make it to the internet?)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 21, 2013 12:47:35 GMT -5
True.... In comics, I was always more interested in Iron Man when he was a supporting player like in Avengers' comix/whatnot. With Downey as Iron Man, they could have (and I feel should have) gone in a more serious direction with IM2/IM3 and really have him deal with inner demons and come out the other side. But, oh well...  |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 13:10:52 GMT -5
After seeing MOS, I was dying to see what George Miller would have come up with instead for his JLA film. Based on Miller's track record, I would have even have liked to have seen it in comic book or animated form at least. (Did the script for the abandoned JL ever make it to the internet?) It must have leaked at some point because I think Latino Review reviewed it first and said it was awful. Millers a great director but even he needs a strong script. His Justice League sounded like the Teen Comedy League. DJ Cotrona, Adam Brody, and Armie Hammer? I had to roll my eyes. Cotrona was like Lady Jaye's backup tampon in GI Joe Retaliation. I wouldn't have been able to take him seriously as Superman back then. Even Routh looked more macho. I also remember how wooden Common was in Terminator Salvation. Not sure if he would have worked as John Stewart or not. Maybe Miller could have pulled something out if him but someone like Idris Elba would have been a better choice in looks and talent and attitude. If Fury Road is a good movie and if he wants it let Miller direct a DC movie. I'd rather someone like George Miller Introduce the new Batman than Snyder. Millers record speaks for itself. He's one of the best action directors ever and knows how to build the lone hero myth. He's also been very diverse with his material. He's not a one trick pony. Maybe they should even consider letting him make a new version of Justice League. He knows how to build action, drama, and suspense far better than Snyder. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 13:20:07 GMT -5
True.... In comics, I was always more interested in Iron Man when he was a supporting player like in Avengers' comix/whatnot. With Downey as Iron Man, they could have (and I feel should have) gone in a more serious direction with IM2/IM3 and really have him deal with inner demons and come out the other side. But, oh well... I think a lot of people were hoping to see that in IM 2 and 3 and were probably disappointed they didn't. I think Downeys Iron man works both as a solo hero and in a team. Gotta give Whedon credit for figuring how to fit such a strong personality into a group like that. The big downside for me with Downey playing Stark as such a smartass was that it took away the comic relief role Hawkeye could have had as the teams resident smartass. That have Renner even less of a character to work with. That tends to happen when the dynamics are changed. In Blade Trinity King couldn't be the self loathing brooding vampire because Blade was already doing some of that. If Reynolds and Amell had played GL and Green Arrow in a JLA movie their characters would have kind of switched roles. At least in part. |
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Post by SupermanUF on Jul 21, 2013 15:10:57 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure why you all seem so sure that after the Superman that was presented to us in MoS--a Superman who tears a military drone out of the sky so he can't be spied on--would suddenly in his very next outing be the government stooge presented to us in TDKR.
Snyder himself said it's not an adaptation of TDKR. Ain't gonna happen. Supes will be the good guy, after all it's Man of Steel 2 featuring Batman, not a Batman movie featuring Superman. This is a young Superman, and it'll be a young Batman. And they'll have that hand-shake "this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship" moment at the end. Watch the animated series World's Finest to remind yourself that Superman and Batman are usually always at odds.
F*cking heck, enjoy the news you crusty codgers. It's a great time to be a Supes fan.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 15:17:56 GMT -5
Is that for definite? I noticed Goyer said Superman killing Zod will be heavily addressed in the new film. But yeah, I'm just happy Superman is at least getting screen time again. As for the rest, they can go back and comfort themselves with the movies that made them believe a man could fly, according to the polls that includes all of them  |
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 15:28:34 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure why you all seem so sure that after the Superman that was presented to us in MoS--a Superman who tears a military drone out of the sky so he can't be spied on--would suddenly in his very next outing be the government stooge presented to us in TDKR. Snyder himself said it's not an adaptation of TDKR. Ain't gonna happen. Supes will be the good guy, after all it's Man of Steel 2 featuring Batman, not a Batman movie featuring Superman. This is a young Superman, and it'll be a young Batman. And they'll have that hand-shake "this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship" moment at the end. Watch the animated series World's Finest to remind yourself that Superman and Batman are usually always at odds. F*cking heck, enjoy the news you crusty codgers. It's a great time to be a Supes fan. Uh...who are "all" the people who said they were so sure Superman would be a government stooge in the next movie? I know I didn't. I think very few people said anything of the sort. On this board anyway |
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Post by Metallo on Jul 21, 2013 15:30:02 GMT -5
Is that for definite? I noticed Goyer said Superman killing Zod will be heavily addressed in the new film. But yeah, I'm just happy Superman is at least getting screen time again. As for the rest, they can go back and comfort themselves with the movies that made them believe a man could fly, according to the polls that includes all of them Better yet Ill try to have hope for the next reboot being great. Some of us want new stuff. |
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