Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 6, 2017 18:45:40 GMT -5
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 24, 2017 10:39:54 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 24, 2017 12:51:10 GMT -5
Wow! That's really impressive- This isn't Alex Ross's work, is it?
While I love Alex Ross's work- I never was crazy about the actor he uses for older Superman. This looks modeled after Chris Reeve, which I think is fantastic.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 25, 2017 9:38:46 GMT -5
Yup. Looks like Supergirl is modelled on Helen Slater too.
Huge Ross fan but sometimes I felt his combination of "realism" and "larger than life" came off looking odd. He'll always be a great artist to me but his stuff doesn't seem to be as popular as it used to be. I wonder why? The silver age is back in a big way and that was Ross's main inspiration. I wonder if the huge growth of more accurate comic book movies and tv shows have made his stuff less special. Everywhere we look there are dc and marvel heroes translated to real life which used to be something that was almost exclusive to his style.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 26, 2017 2:52:58 GMT -5
Yup. Looks like Supergirl is modelled on Helen Slater too. Huge Ross fan but sometimes I felt his combination of "realism" and "larger than life" came off looking odd. He'll always be a great artist to me but his stuff doesn't seem to be as popular as it used to be. I wonder why? The silver age is back in a big way and that was Ross's main inspiration. I wonder if the huge growth of more accurate comic book movies and tv shows have made his stuff less special. Everywhere we look there are dc and marvel heroes translated to real life which used to be something that was almost exclusive to his style. That might be- but (for my part) it depends on the composition as well as the look of the individual characters. Sometimes he gets models that just looks 'miscast' to me, and echoing it in a painted style sometimes leaves me cold. When it feels like the comic image brought to life accurately with a nice composition, I'm more than thrilled with it. So, anyhow, that's why I'm into some, but not necessarily all of Ross's work. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 26, 2017 12:15:16 GMT -5
Yeah but you could say that's always been true of his work. It just seems like overall he's not nearly as popular as he once was. I think the industry has changed, audiences tastes have changed, and there's a new crop of hot "it" writers and artists. It's not just Ross who doesn't seem to be as hot a commodity as he once was. There's more fresh more "modern" competition out there.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 27, 2017 1:50:09 GMT -5
Yeah but you could say that's always been true of his work. It just seems like overall he's not nearly as popular as he once was. I think the industry has changed, audiences tasages have changed, and there's a new crop of hot "it" writers and artists. It's not just Ross who doesn't seem to be as hot a commodity as he once was. There's more fresh more "modern" competition out there. That's true... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 15, 2017 17:53:17 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 16, 2017 6:05:29 GMT -5
Fun chart!  |
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Post by Metallo on Oct 16, 2017 10:22:02 GMT -5
I thought it was pretty cool. It's obviously manipulated to get a certain outcome. It's mostly actors of the same era in the first rounds except for some odd exceptions (why Routh against Keaton and Reeve against Kilmer?). My biggest problem is why did they use a photo of George Reeves for Bud Collyer? Kinda dumb.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 16, 2017 12:42:07 GMT -5
I thought it was pretty cool. It's obviously manipulated to get a certain outcome. It's mostly actors of the same era in the first rounds except for some odd exceptions (why Routh against Keaton and Reeve against Kilmer?). My biggest problem is why did they use a photo of George Reeves for Bud Collyer? Kinda dumb. Because of the timing and the era- while Bale is the definitive Bruce Wayne/Batman (though Burton's costume for Batman is the one I love the most) for me- it kills me that we didn't get a Batman vs. Superman with someone who was groomed to be in the spirit of Chris Reeve's Superman- Brandon Routh. Having a Batman vs. Superman with Bryan Singer directing would have been TOTALLY fine with me! |
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Post by Metallo on Oct 16, 2017 14:38:31 GMT -5
It is kinda sh!tty that Cavill continues getting opportunities with Superman that Routh never got even though in the grand scheme of things MOS really didn't do much better than SR. It seems like the shared universe concept and the interconnectivity is what's getting Cavill and Snyders Superman more chances at bat when in the past they would have been scrapped.
Snyderman is a lesser version of the character. He's not having the success that Reeve or Reeves or even Cain or Welling's versions had yet he's getting these groundbreaking opportunities. I guess one could argue this Superman needs them since he can't be the first movie Superman or the first tv Superman. This lets him be the first of something. You could also argue the others were so successful that they didn't need a shared universe or team ups. They could stand on their own.
one of the biggest mistakes WB has made is doing all this without establishing the different dc heroes on their own first. BVS should have been icon against icon...wether it had been West vs Reeves or Keaton vs Reeve or even Bale vs Welling or Routh. It should have been successful fully estebleshed versions of each character going head to head. It would have made the whole endevour an even bigger deal. The build up is part of the promotion for the movie. Marvel basically had a 4 year hype and promotional campaign for the Avengers. WB hotshotted the whole thing for BVS.
Paramount didn't do Kirk meeting Picard during TNG's first season on tv. They did it when both had years worth of adventures behind them. There's a reason for that.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 16, 2017 14:45:32 GMT -5
It is kinda sh!tty that Cavills getting opportunities with Superman that Routh never got even though in the grande scheme of things MOS really didn't do much better than SR. It seems like the shared universe concept and the intterconectivity is what's getting Cavill and Snyders Superman more chances at bat when in the past they would have been scrapped. Snyderman is a lesser version of the character. He's not having the success that Reeve or Reeves or even Cain or Welling had with the role yet he's getting these groundbreaking opportunities. I guess one could argue this Superman needs them since he can't be the first movie Superman or the first tv Superman. This lets him be the first of something. You could also argue the others were sucessful that they didn't need a shared universe or team ups. They could stand on their own. But one of the biggest mistakes WB has made is doing all this without estebleshing the different dc heroes on their own first. BVS should have been icon against icon. Wether it had been West vs Reeves or Keaton vs Reeve or even Bale vs Welling or Routh. It shouldn't have been two successful fully estebleshed versions of each character going head to head. It wouldn't have made the whole endevour and even bigger deal. Paramount didn't do Kirk meeting Picard during TNG's first season on tv. They did it when both had years worth of adventures behind them. There's a reason for that. Well... I blame Goyer in equal parts with Snyder for a number of scenes that I feel made this version incredibly flawed, versus the Donner-Singer version, the Lois and Clark version, and even below the Smallville version (which had a number of things that irritated to a big degree as well). I'd read that Snyder felt that his version of BvS would not have fit using Christian Bale- but I disagree. While I think Batfleck worked more than I thought it would for that film, having Bale would have really made me sit up and pay attention. Pity that even Bale said he felt a tinge of regret on not continuing the character after Affleck was announced as taking up the role. |
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Post by Metallo on Oct 16, 2017 15:12:58 GMT -5
I agree with Snyder only in the sense that his Batman is more comic booky and larger than life. More stylized. Nolan/Bales Batman is more grounded in real life. Look at the costumes. Look at the fight scenes. Bales fights are believable. Afflecks are a little over he top.
Tonally they're very close tho and if Snyder had stuck more to Nolan's style of filmmaking adjustments could have been made to get Bale back if he was willing. I think that's what a lot of people were hoping for when Nolan was announced as producer on MOS.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 16, 2017 15:27:55 GMT -5
I agree with Snyder only in the sense that his Batman is more comic booky and larger than life. More stylized. Nolan/Bales Batman is more grounded in real life. Look at the costumes. Look at the fight scenes. Bales fights are believable. Afflecks are a little over he top. Tonally they're very close tho and if Snyder had stuck more to Nolan's style of filmmaking adjustments could have been made to get Bale back if he was willing. I think that's what a lot of people were hoping for when Nolan was announced as producer on MOS. Coming from someone who grew up spoiled on Hong Kong kung fu films- Bales fighting in Batman are sometimes painful in how slow they are, (again, I realize I'm spoiled and used to over-the-top action) for someone who's supposed to be a master of all martial arts.... one thing I'll give Snyder is that his Batman action scenes FINALLY are how I've always envisioned Batman should be on film, that no one had captured yet. With Marvel directors having such different tones (example being Antman and Civil War, to name two right off the bat), I think it would have been fine to have had Bale and Michael Caine swapped in without much change. Since the timeframe has been somewhat loose on these films, who's to say that they couldn't have whitened Bale's hair and with the time frame, juiced up the Batcave in between the movies? But, moot point, I suppose.... |
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Post by Metallo on Oct 16, 2017 18:27:43 GMT -5
It's not so much an issue of tone as it is an issue of style. All the DCEU films are sort of the children of the dark knight trilogy. They're all grounded and more serious but Nolan's Batman is closer to a guy in SWAT gear than the pumped up super cgi gymnast of BVS. Bale could have been in BVS easy but it's clear Snyder would have to do a Batman he wasn't interested in. Snyders a grim and gritty era jakked up comic book fanboy. He is to movies what Rob Liefeld was to image comics. He wanted a more frank Miller style bodybuilder Batman.
I always thought Nolans Batman action was a little dull but Snyders action was a little over the top. Reminded me of the daredevil movie in that Batman was doing stuff that was closer to superhuman. I wanted a Batman who could really fight like Snipes in Blade or Lee in The Crow.
It's interesting though. If you squint Snyders Batman could have been Nolan's Batman as far as his background history. TDKRises and BVS both draw heavily from TDKReturns. Both had been Batman for years. Both were older. The Wayne mansion was destroyed. With a few tweaks you could have had Bale coming out of retirement after seeing the Superman/Zod incident. In a vague BASIC story sense it's almost like BVS takes place in a world where TDKRises never happened and we went right from TDK to BVS
Only issue I'd have had is any time you base a shared universe on an already existing property the future is limited by what's been done. To me that's not entirely fair to any future filmmakers. Nobody could do a great Ras or two face story because they'd be dead.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 19, 2017 11:09:56 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 19, 2017 12:57:14 GMT -5
It's not so much an issue of tone as it is an issue of style. All the DCEU films are sort of the children of the dark knight trilogy. They're all grounded and more serious but Nolan's Batman is closer to a guy in SWAT gear than the pumped up super cgi gymnast of BVS. In Batman Begins, I like that Goyer WROTE that Bruce/Batman was supposed to have been an expert in different martial arts (or inferred by the first scene with Ra's Al Ghul in the temple recognizing all the styles he learned)- but filmingwise, it certainly didn't play that way- I should have been 'wowed' by the martial arts instead of seeing some slow choreography with quick cuts. In my mind, Bruce/Batman's abilities go far beyond the guy who trained in SWAT, because of his obsession and resources all those years since his parents died. (Unless one just counts his actual training starting after Joe Chill was murdered). |
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Post by Metallo on Oct 19, 2017 14:11:34 GMT -5
Bruce was a trained/experienced fighter before he met Ras. That was shown in the prison fight before Ras found him. He also tells Ras he'd had training during the sword fight on the frozen lake.
They used real martial arts techniques in the film but because of the way Nolan shot it (again, style) and his general weakness in shooting fight scenes you can't really see it. Of course you could blame every post Bourne movie of that. That's why I feel Nolans fight scenes are kind of soft. But Snyder has his Batman defying the laws of physics on more than one occiasion which isnt really any better IMO.
When it comes to the costume even in Begins they talk about the suit being military r&d and it looks like industrialized body armor. In BVS it looks like Batmans wearing a muscle suit. It's the difference between Nolans more realistic and style Snyders dark comic book style.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 19, 2017 15:52:42 GMT -5
Bruce was a trained/experienced fighter before he met Ras. That was shown in the prison fight before Ras found him. He also tells Ras he'd had training during the sword fight on the frozen lake. They used real martial arts techniques in the film but because of the way Nolan shot it (again, style) and his general weakness in shooting fight scenes you can't really see it. Of course you could blame every post Bourne movie of that. That's why I feel Nolans fight scenes are kind of soft. But Snyder has his Batman defying the laws of physics on more than one occiasion which isnt really any better IMO. When it comes to the costume even in Begins they talk about the suit being military r&d and it looks like industrialized body armor. In BVS it looks like Batmans wearing a muscle suit. It's the difference between Nolans more realistic and style Snyders dark comic book style. For superhero films, I like the stylized look on the action and a realistic take on the drama- which is probably why I like Jim Cameron's work so much in that I feel he gets both. And.... my own addiction to Hong Kong action films, that defy the laws of physics almost ALWAYS.  Still- the action scenes being underwhelming weren't a deal-breaker as far as loving the first two Nolan Batman films... .there's WAYYY too much good in there! Nolan (and Goyer) I'll always have to give credit for the amazing Batman Begins and Dark Knight- to me, the definitive Batman films- though I'm sad that they didn't do several, as they could have, with that amazing rogue's list that Batman has and WB's love of making money. |
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Post by Metallo on Oct 19, 2017 16:52:49 GMT -5
I think there's a way to find a happy medium though and have superhero scale action that's also believable. It also depends on the character though. With Superman it's not as much of an issue. With Hong Kong wire films they fully embrace that style of filmmaking. That's why it works.
What takes me out of the film though is a realistic grounded movie with unbelievable unrealistic action. Something more over can make that stuff work. Something more grounded should stick to what it is. I think it's why the die hard series has gone to crap. In the first one the action was epic but it was believable. When McClane was getting slung around like a rag dog in Chernobyl in die hard 5 it was absurd to me.
Cameron is a good example. Amazing action but you also buy into it.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 19, 2017 17:41:28 GMT -5
I think there's a way to find a happy medium though and have superhero scale action that's also believable. It also depends on the character though. With Superman it's not as much of an issue. With Hong Kong wire films they fully embrace that style of filmmaking. That's why it works. What takes me out of the film though is a realistic grounded movie with unbelievable unrealistic action. Something more over can make that stuff work. Something more grounded should stick to what it is. I think it's why the die hard series has gone to crap. In the first one the action was epic but it was believable. When McClane was getting slung around like a rag dog in Chernobyl in die hard 5 it was absurd to me. Cameron is a good example. Amazing action but you also buy into it. Good post. I hear you- and like how you phrased it- that a 'happy medium' can keep you in the film. What's funny is that while I was totally ok with the action (and WAYYY preferred it to the 'too fast' action of MOS), I hated Del Toro's "Blade 2" for the same reason you mentioned not liking BvS's action... that it seemed unbelievable and (perhaps)too cartoony. Die Hard 1, 2 and 4 I thought were enjoyable. I passed on 5 and thought 3 was a bit of a mess. I thought the Lethal Weapon series had a much stronger chance for longevity, but in that situation, 4 was too much of a mess (though still fun enough). |
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Post by Metallo on Oct 19, 2017 18:20:08 GMT -5
I recently rewatched Blade 2 and I agree with you. The live action fight scenes are great but any time they switch to the CGI doubles it took me out of the movie. Especially the scene where Blade fights Nyssa in front of the big floodlights.
Usually when the films somewhat realistic I want that happy medium. If it's more over the top I prefer the over the top action.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 20, 2017 12:45:10 GMT -5
I recently rewatched Blade 2 and I agree with you. The live action fight scenes are great but any time they switch to the CGI doubles it took me out of the movie. Especially the scene where Blade fights Nyssa in front of the big floodlights. Usually when the films somewhat realistic I want that happy medium. If it's more over the top I prefer the over the top action. My thing is: if you can make the actors look great in it, or if you already have trained martial artists- don't use the artificial enhancements. That also goes for wirework- I cringe when I see an old Hong Kong film with Jet Li either sped up or with crazy wirework. He's already an amazing martial artist- why not just be wowed by his natural talent? Save CGI and wires for actors in Iron Fist, as it NEEDS all the help it can get! |
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Post by Metallo on Oct 20, 2017 13:44:03 GMT -5
Cgi Doubles should only be used for stuff the actors and stunt men can't do but needs to be in there. Some of the shots in Blade 2 qualified but most didn't. Also don't draw attention to cgi that doesn't hold up with close ups and lighting. Make it blend in. Superman Returns had the same problem with some shots.
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