Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 14, 2018 10:12:52 GMT -5
www.darkhorizons.com/gotham-to-wrap-with-shorter-fifth-season/We were JUST talking about this with Smallville. I imagine the biggest reason the show is ending is because the costs were high and the show wasn’t sustainable with falling ratings. At least Fox is doing the classy thing by letting the show wrap up with a fifth season that gets the show to 100 episodes for syndication. Either way it’s the right choice. Gotham was running into the same problems Smallville did as it went on and on.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 14, 2018 11:47:01 GMT -5
www.darkhorizons.com/gotham-to-wrap-with-shorter-fifth-season/We were JUST talking about this with Smallville. I imagine the biggest reason the show is ending is because the costs were high and the show wasn’t sustainable with falling ratings. At least Fox is doing the classy thing by letting the show wrap up with a fifth season that gets the show to 100 episodes for syndication. Either way it’s the right choice. Gotham was running into the same problems Smallville did as it went on and on. I remember being so jazzed by the show runner of "Rome" doing Gotham- I thought it was going to be "the Dark Knight" only with Gordon.... but the villains felt too one-dimensional to me and it was like an overlong "Suicide Squad" tv show. The main thing I liked were the bits with young Bruce Wayne and Selina. Sometimes ONE limited series is better imo than a show that keeps running on forever. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 14, 2018 13:49:29 GMT -5
That’s what Jonathan Nolan’s original idea was but you know they buckled and went with the easiest way to get viewers. I liked what they did with a younger penguin but as I saw mr freeze show up I knew the show was doomed.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 14, 2018 14:07:42 GMT -5
That’s what Jonathan Nolan’s original idea was but you know they buckled and went with the easiest way to get viewers. I liked what they did with a younger penguin but as I saw mr freeze show up I knew the show was doomed. In theory, if it had to be about the origins of all the classic villains, I could see it (under the right writers) being a great miniseries. Not something that drags out to five seasons. ;p |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 14, 2018 22:36:24 GMT -5
The fatal flaw with Gotham is if Gordon and the gcpd can handle all these supervillians what reason is there for a Batman? Nolan and even Burton understood it was about escalation. Batman’s the first. Hes patient zero in the asylum that is Gotham city.
Batman does what he does to scare criminals but a new breed of criminal is inspired by his theatricality after he makes his debut. Escalation. Batman’s not going to inspire nearly as much fear in the normal criminal when there are real monsters like Feeze and Grundy out there. He looks tame in comparison to some of these people. Why even dress up like a Bat?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 15, 2018 12:32:44 GMT -5
The fatal flaw with Gotham is if Gordon and the gcpd can handle all these supervillians what reason is there for a Batman? Nolan and even Burton understood it was about escalation. Batman’s the first. Hes patient zero in the asylum that is Gotham city. Batman does what he does to scare criminals but a new breed of criminal is inspired by his theatricality after he makes his debut. Escalation. Batman’s not going to inspire nearly as much fear in the normal criminal when there are real monsters like Feeze and Grundy out there. He looks tame in comparison to some of these people. Why even dress up like a Bat? Good points! Also, I thought that the villains would be subtle, and that it be more about Gordon's journey..... but from what I've seen, much of it seems like caricature and a show about filler, more than anything else. Pity. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 17, 2018 14:36:05 GMT -5
It should have been. Gotham could have been a great show if it focused on gordons story and the Wayne murder was just the first case to kick that off. Instead it morphed into something else.
The shows had a good run in terms of length (it’s gonna beat most dc shows) but that’s mostly because it’s coasted on the Batman brands appeal not the quality of the show itself.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 17, 2018 15:40:59 GMT -5
It should have been. Gotham could have been a great show if it focused on gordons story and the Wayne murder was just the first case to kick that off. Instead it morphed into something else. The shows had a good run in terms of length (it’s gonna beat most dc shows) but that’s mostly because it’s coasted on the Batman brands appeal not the quality of the show itself. Right. One of the best comic book shows, "Legion" I feel only has a touch of the X-men comic book influence- which normally bugs me- but in that case, what it offers is so fresh and original on its own, that I'm ok with it. If Gotham had only a touch of the comics and utilized Gordon as their 'Batman' surrogate, but with an interesting character arc on his own- I think if they used the Dark Knight example, it could have been a great more reality-based tv show. It's not quite realistic and not quite the stuff in comics I like. It's a weird 'meh' middle ground that's dark without substance. eh. |
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Post by Metallo on May 17, 2018 20:29:18 GMT -5
I feel like Legion is a great show but it’s too complex for a lot of people to be patient with. It’s even piling up on my dvr until I can properly sit down and watch the rest of season 2. I guess different shows face different challenges. Superhero tv always has I guess. It’s always been somewhat niche. Hard to think of a truly huge breakout hit superhero or comic book show.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 17, 2018 21:33:55 GMT -5
I feel like Legion is a great show but it’s too complex for a lot of people to be patient with. It’s even piling up on my dvr until I can properly sit down and watch the rest of season 2. I guess different shows face different challenges. Superhero tv always has I guess. It’s always been somewhat niche. Hard to think of a truly huge breakout hit superhero or comic book show. I thought the first season of Daredevil was amazing and even was close to the Miller comics in terms of quality. (The second season not even close, unfortunately.) |
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Post by Metallo on May 17, 2018 22:27:10 GMT -5
I liked season 2 but I do think season 1 was better. I think once again it’s partly another case or resources spread to thin but marvel tv under Loeb has always been inconsistent. Maybe it’s time he stepped down.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 19, 2018 0:52:33 GMT -5
I liked season 2 but I do think season 1 was better. I think once again it’s partly another case or resources spread to thin but marvel tv under Loeb has always been inconsistent. Maybe it’s time he stepped down. I wonder how much he's hands-on. I do agree that the tv side of Marvel is pretty much all over the place, in contrast to the movies (which aren't always a '10' either, but they're overall pretty solid and consistent). Berlianti may be a bit more consistent- but - as you mentioned- a lot of his superhero tv shows are starting to feel pretty formulaic and/or repeat themselves. With so much mediocre (or less) superhero material out there now, (Netflix, ABC tv, Fox tv, CW) I'd almost rather there be less superhero related shows but with more ambition for higher quality. Ideally, I'd say that the miniseries/ Netflix format should have gathered the highest quality- and I think it has with DD season 1, but I haven't been all that impressed with the other Netflix tv shows. To much 'meh'.... |
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Post by Metallo on May 19, 2018 8:47:48 GMT -5
I liked season 2 but I do think season 1 was better. I think once again it’s partly another case or resources spread to thin but marvel tv under Loeb has always been inconsistent. Maybe it’s time he stepped down. I wonder how much he's hands-on. I do agree that the tv side of Marvel is pretty much all over the place, in contrast to the movies (which aren't always a '10' either, but they're overall pretty solid and consistent). Berlianti may be a bit more consistent- but - as you mentioned- a lot of his superhero tv shows are starting to feel pretty formulaic and/or repeat themselves. With so much mediocre (or less) superhero material out there now, (Netflix, ABC tv, Fox tv, CW) I'd almost rather there be less superhero related shows but with more ambition for higher quality. Ideally, I'd say that the miniseries/ Netflix format should have gathered the highest quality- and I think it has with DD season 1, but I haven't been all that impressed with the other Netflix tv shows. To much 'meh'.... Totally agree. The production schedule and episode counts on Netflix shows are different so logically they should have more control to make better shows. It’s not like network tv where they are more rushed and have to meet certain dates and film while they’re airing episodes. But the Netflix marvel shows are all over the place. Fish stinks form the top so I think somewhere there’s a problem at the top of marvel tv. Then again a good show runner can counteract a lot of that. Runaways has gotten great reviews and on the dc side so has black lightning. Early on black lightning bucked the trends of the other Arrowverse shows and I think that helped it tremendously. Berlanti does have a formula though and as each show goes on it seems like the shows get lazier and rely more and more on their formula. I think that accounts for the consistency but also accounts for the lack of creativity. The formula has basically killed Arrow once again with viewers losing interest. Flash has been crap imo. By far the worst arrowverse show this season they’re all inconsistent but I’ve seen more bad than good from Flash this year. There already is too much with sadly more on the way. Never thought I’d say that but it’s true. It’s not going to be superhero fatigue that kills the genre it’s going to be superhero over saturation or superhero overexposure. There’s too much superhero stuff out there for anyone to watch even if they don’t watch everything. Even if you just watch some of the shows you’re gonna have to pick and choose...and that’s on top of all the the other competition across the tv landscape. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 19, 2018 13:54:04 GMT -5
I wonder how much he's hands-on. I do agree that the tv side of Marvel is pretty much all over the place, in contrast to the movies (which aren't always a '10' either, but they're overall pretty solid and consistent). Berlianti may be a bit more consistent- but - as you mentioned- a lot of his superhero tv shows are starting to feel pretty formulaic and/or repeat themselves. With so much mediocre (or less) superhero material out there now, (Netflix, ABC tv, Fox tv, CW) I'd almost rather there be less superhero related shows but with more ambition for higher quality. Ideally, I'd say that the miniseries/ Netflix format should have gathered the highest quality- and I think it has with DD season 1, but I haven't been all that impressed with the other Netflix tv shows. To much 'meh'.... Totally agree. The production schedule and episode counts on Netflix shows are different so logically they should have more control to make better shows. It’s not like network tv where they are more rushed and have to meet certain dates and film while they’re airing episodes. But the Netflix marvel shows are all over the place. Fish stinks form the top so I think somewhere there’s a problem at the top of marvel tv. Then again a good show runner can counteract a lot of that. Runaways has gotten great reviews and on the dc side so has black lightning. Early on black lightning bucked the trends of the other Arrowverse shows and I think that helped it tremendously. Berlanti does have a formula though and as each show goes on it seems like the shows get lazier and rely more and more on their formula. I think that accounts for the consistency but also accounts for the lack of creativity. The formula has basically killed Arrow once again with viewers losing interest. Flash has been crap imo. By far the worst arrowverse show this season they’re all inconsistent but I’ve seen more bad than good from Flash this year. There already is too much with sadly more on the way. Never thought I’d say that but it’s true. It’s not going to be superhero fatigue that kills the genre it’s going to be superhero over saturation or superhero overexposure. There’s too much superhero stuff out there for anyone to watch even if they don’t watch everything. Even if you just watch some of the shows you’re gonna have to pick and choose...and that’s on top of all the the other competition across the tv landscape. In a way, wouldn't it be great if there was a law to say: "Every superhero tv show gets two seasons MAX. Take your time and make it the BEST."? I've heard on many tv shows (not just the superhero/action ones)- that sometimes it's just a rush to keep all the balls in the air and finish the season, let alone worry about quality. (Even on TNG- that actually found that they were HELPED by having an open submission script policy. When they stopped in the later seasons, they openly said that they ended up with too many 'family' stories because they realized too late that they kind of burned out.) |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 19, 2018 14:12:25 GMT -5
I wouldn’t say two and I wouldn’t say a law. It depends on the show as far as how long it should run and what it can do in that time. It should be on a case by case basis. If a show needs five years to tell a strong story go for that. If it needs one year go for that.
It would be nice if the show makers could sit down and map out their series and how long they’d need to tell their story in the best way. It would be nice if the networks weren’t totally blinded by money and were more concerned about the quality of their product. Continuing to put out quality products will earn more money in the long term than just the relatively short term thinking of milking a show dry until it no longer makes anything. A groups reputation can stay strong for decades long past when one show has gone bad and slowly withers away into cancellation.
Babylon 5 had a five year arc and stuck to it. It worked and there was little wasted effort put into it. It didn’t get stale. The Simpsons meanwhile still lingers on a shadow of its former self.
Game of Thrones is smartly ending while it’s still hot. People want to see how it will end. Walking Dead is becoming more and more of a stale joke of a show because there’s no end in sight and the network will milk it for all its worth. Why keep watching when there’s no storyline destination or hope for seeing where the characters end up? People have realized they will continue to be strung along by amc with the same old stuff every week and more and more viewers are just calling it quite.
All shows reach the end of their natural lifespan. The big thing is figuring out when that is even if you didn’t start with an end date. To see a great show become awful is just sad to watch. It’s why part of me was hoping this would be agents of shields last season. The show has improved a lot over the last couple years and it does feel like a good time to end it. They’ve done all the could so let it go out on a good episode.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 19, 2018 14:26:32 GMT -5
I wouldn’t say two and I wouldn’t say a law. It depends on the show as far as how long it should run and what it can do in that time. It should be on a case by case basis. If a show needs five years to tell a strong story go for that. If it needs one year go for that. It would be nice if the show makers could sit down and map out their series and how long they’d need to tell their story in the best way. It would be nice if the networks weren’t totally blinded by money and were more concerned about the quality of their product. Continuing to put out quality products will earn more money in the long term than just the relatively short term thinking of milking a show dry until it no longer makes anything. A groups reputation can stay strong for decades long past when one show has gone bad and slowly withers away into cancellation. Babylon 5 had a five year arc and stuck to it. It worked and there was little wasted effort put into it. It didn’t get stale. The Simpsons meanwhile still lingers on a shadow of its former self. Game of Thrones is smartly ending while it’s still hot. People want to see how it will end. Walking Dead is becoming more and more of a stale joke of a show because there’s no end in sight and the network will milk it for all its worth. Why keep watching when there’s no storyline destination or hope for seeing where the characters end up? People have realized they will continue to be strung along by amc with the same old stuff every week and more and more viewers are just calling it quite. All shows reach the end of their natural lifespan. The big thing is figuring out when that is even if you didn’t start with an end date. To see a great show become awful is just sad to watch. It’s why part of me was hoping this would be agents of shields last season. The show has improved a lot over the last couple years and it does feel like a good time to end it. They’ve done all the could so let it go out on a good episode. I read an interview with a dramedy show runner who talked about how she was always frustrated with the. network for giving green lights to seasons so late, that it was hard to plan out and map out a show's season- with the availability of actors sometimes affecting what stories they can write and execute. When a promise of a two-season pickup comes up, apparently these show runners are in hog heaven, because then they have time to plan. I was also watching a tv conference for the show "Dexter" when they asked the show runners how they figured out the arc of Dexter within a given season. What they said was that they made sure that there was a progression- but it couldn't go too far, in case they got picked up for another season- which made me groan. That type of thinking makes me think that there's that sense of holding back, 'just in case there's a sequel'- sort of- and that things don't go full out unless they know when the series actually ends. Anyhow- almost goes back to Netflix. As you mentioned, they know exactly how many episodes that they'll get and there's NO commercial interruption. With so few barriers compared to others, you'd expect higher quality. |
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Post by Metallo on May 19, 2018 15:32:11 GMT -5
Not only that but they have time to write before they start filming. Look how long stranger things is taking for its next season. They write and map it all out then they film. The old broadcast network model doesn’t really give nearly as much time to do that and they have to come up with stories for twice as many episodes.
I was thinking about how much better all the cw shows would be if they could all cut back to even 18 shows a season. There would be far less repetition and filler.
A lot of shows are suffering because of uncertain futures right now. If a show is being cancelled the network should give a couple months warning so the team can do something. Birds of prey got that so the final episode could bring some closure. So many shows now are ending on cliffhangers with no resolution ever coming. Maybe these bubble shows should be smart enough not to end things on cliffhangers as well.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 19, 2018 19:43:34 GMT -5
Not only that but they have time to write before they start filming. Look how long stranger things is taking for its next season. They write and map it all out then they film. The old broadcast network model doesn’t really give nearly as much time to do that and they have to come up with stories for twice as many episodes. I was thinking about how much better all the cw shows would be if they could all cut back to even 18 shows a season. There would be far less repetition and filler. A lot of shows are suffering because of uncertain futures right now. If a show is being cancelled the network should give a couple months warning so the team can do something. Birds of prey got that so the final episode could bring some closure. So many shows now are ending on cliffhangers with no resolution ever coming. Maybe these bubble shows should be smart enough not to end things on cliffhangers as well. I've read that the cliffhangers are /were to entice the networks who might be on the fence to pick it up for a renewal. Loved the first season of 'Empire'- but it looked like the point it was trying to reach got reached, but then the last episode unraveled things so that (artificially) it looked like there was more story to tell. Never went back for season 2, as it felt like the real story already got told with what they had. The best seasons in general I think came from the Joss Whedon's shows- and finales, as it looked like they held nothing back or trusted that the could figure out something fresh if there was a new season. The only bummer was the last episode of Angel that ended on a cliffhanger only because they were led to believe that there was another season coming. I don't know how much of the comic book for 'season 6' is close to what they would have done, but the story isn't bad- particularly how they wrapped it up (for the most part). I haven't read ALL the Angel comics, but I do wonder if it going back to Dark Horse ended on a high or low note- and/or if it's still going... |
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Post by Metallo on May 19, 2018 20:47:58 GMT -5
If that’s true it’s a pretty terrible strategy because I can’t begin to count the number of shows I’ve watched that got cancelled on a cliffhanger. Sarah Connor Chronicles, Angel, Sliders, Hannibal, Twin Peaks (thankfully it only took twenty five years to come back), Alf, V, Carnivale, Quantum Leap (all we got was an end card with some text!), Benson, Space Above and Beyond, ...I’m still waiting to find out what happened with Brimstone.
Don’t ever invest your time in a Fox tv show.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 20, 2018 1:57:35 GMT -5
If that’s true it’s a pretty terrible strategy because I can’t begin to count the number of shows I’ve watched that got cancelled on a cliffhanger. Sarah Connor Chronicles, Angel, Sliders, Hannibal, Twin Peaks (thankfully it only took twenty five years to come back), Alf, V, Carnivale, Quantum Leap (all we got was an end card with some text!), Benson, Space Above and Beyond, ...I’m still waiting to find out what happened with Brimstone. Don’t ever invest your time in a Fox tv show. It's starting to look like it IS a lot of folks' strategy- maybe until they get to 100 episodes so it can qualify for syndication? Now that I think on it, didn't each season of Battlestar end on a cliffhanger until the end? And the later seasons of TNG? (Though a good chunk of the time the concluding episodes weren't as good). |
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Post by Metallo on May 20, 2018 11:46:47 GMT -5
It’s different when you know your show is coming back. It’s also different in syndication which tng was. Ratings model isn’t quite the same as a networks. That’s why you saw an explosion of syndicated shows in the 90s. Shows that never would have made it on network tv took a chance at syndication. Star treks only been canceled on networks. Never syndication. Team knight rider was one that annoyingly ended on a cliffhanger too but never got a second season.
Most do try to hang on for 100 episodes for syndication since that makes the show more valuable. Agents of shield got their hundred this year so they wrote the season finale as a series finale.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 20, 2018 12:21:00 GMT -5
It’s different when you know your show is coming back. It’s also different in syndication which tng was. Ratings model isn’t quite the same as a networks. That’s why you saw an explosion of syndicated shows in the 90s. Shows that never would have made it on network tv took a chance at syndication. Star treks only been canceled on networks. Never syndication. Team knight rider was one that annoyingly ended on a cliffhanger too but never got a second season. Most do try to hang on for 100 episodes for syndication since that makes the show more valuable. Agents of shield got their hundred this year so they wrote the season finale as a series finale. Weirdly you would think that would have given "Andromeda" protection from turning into pure crap. But then again- I think it was Sorbo and the producers that ruined that, by getting rid of the DS9 writer who was the main guiding force in the first two seasons. That's another series that had the potential to grow into a DS9. The writer Robert Hewitt Wolfe did a great job setting up the universe, but Sorbo wanted to make it another brainless 'Hercules'. Sad because I saw some great potential in it. |
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Post by Metallo on May 20, 2018 13:22:59 GMT -5
I think that happened with a lot of syndicated genre shows as the whole model slowly died out. Maybe it was to survive. I remember andromeda having potential but it did feel like it got dumbed down as the show went on. Other shows tried to repeat the success of the 90s but it all changed and was too late.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 20, 2018 14:54:00 GMT -5
I think that happened with a lot of syndicated genre shows as the whole model slowly died out. Maybe it was to survive. I remember andromeda having potential but it did feel like it got dumbed down as the show went on. Other shows tried to repeat the success of the 90s but it all changed and was too late. I don't know- but someone told me Sorbo himself realized he made a mistake by not backing Robert Hewitt Wolfe later and tried to go back to what he started, but it was too late. When the series ended, Wolfe put on his website his original outline that the had for the series. It was pretty awesome, and I think would have rivaled B5 for popularity If he was able to stick with his vision for the show. If Paramount is looking for something Trek like- they should look at rebooting Wolfe's version of Andromeda. Or maybe Netflix should. |
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Post by Metallo on May 20, 2018 15:10:21 GMT -5
Sorbos career hasn’t exactly been on fire since then but to be fair how many of the guys like him have still stayed on that level. Lucy Lawless has had a better career than all of those guys and I think it’s because she made better choices and did all kinds of different stuff. She also didn’t hold out for always being the lead. It rarely goes well when actors think they have all the answers creatively. Unless the show is really messed up sometimes ya gotta let the writers do their jobs.
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