Comparing other flicks from 1978 against STM

[dejan]

A couple of years ago I posted a link to  the theatrical trailers of other films from 1978 so as to give a flavour of the other types of flicks that STM went up against.

fortressofsolitude.proboards.com/thread/5585/which-trailers-accompany-reeve-superman

I then decided to get some of these flicks on blu ray or UHD and give them a look at(one movie a night)

have so far watched(or rewatched):

Haloween(UHD)---things that stand out to me ---great steady cam one takes ...accentuated by UHD

Coming Home---never saw this before--great f***in' movie and still all too relevant

Deer Hunter--- a masterpiece....but heavy going

Dawn Of The Dead--have always loved the atmosphere of this one

Boys From Brazil---some f**** up ideas--well worth a watch if you have never seen it before



So far I really enjoyed all of them......will post a more elaborate mini review when I am done with the whole lot ...and how they compare to STM.

Will be watching over next few days:

Days Of Heaven

The King Of The Gypsies

Grease

Piranha

Every Which Way But Loose

Star Wars (this is the 4K77 theatrical version---to mimic the fact that SW played throughout much of 1978 in the US)

Although it's painfully obvious already why STM was so striking......there was literally nothing like it in 78'(or any year before)


I will say the quality of the Blu's or the UHD's is exceptional.....probably far in advance of the average roughed up 35mm 4th generation theatrical prints that did the rounds back in those days(and definitely superior to the VHS/ laserdiscs that we all used to watch them with back in the early 80s)

But it really does allow you to sink back into the theatrical world of 78'

Will probably round the whole thing off with a UHD viewing of STM just for good measure


Anyone else tried this or something similar?

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 14, 2020 15:12:24 GMT -5 dejan said:

A couple of years ago I posted a link to  the theatrical trailers of other films from 1978 so as to give a flavour of the other types of flicks that STM went up against.

fortressofsolitude.proboards.com/thread/5585/which-trailers-accompany-reeve-superman

I then decided to get some of these flicks on blu ray or UHD and give them a look at(one movie a night)

have so far watched(or rewatched):

Haloween(UHD)---things that stand out to me ---great steady cam one takes ...accentuated by UHD

Coming Home---never saw this before--great f***in' movie and still all too relevant

Deer Hunter--- a masterpiece....but heavy going

Dawn Of The Dead--have always loved the atmosphere of this one

Boys From Brazil---some f**** up ideas--well worth a watch if you have never seen it before



So far I really enjoyed all of them......will post a more elaborate mini review when I am done with the whole lot ...and how they compare to STM.

Will be watching over next few days:

Days Of Heaven

The King Of The Gypsies

Grease

Piranha

Every Which Way But Loose

Star Wars (this is the 4K77 theatrical version---to mimic the fact that SW played throughout much of 1978 in the US)

Although it's painfully obvious already why STM was so striking......there was literally nothing like it in 78'(or any year before)


I will say the quality of the Blu's or the UHD's is exceptional.....probably far in advance of the average roughed up 35mm 4th generation theatrical prints that did the rounds back in those days(and definitely superior to the VHS/ laserdiscs that we all used to watch them with back in the early 80s)

But it really does allow you to sink back into the theatrical world of 78'

Will probably round the whole thing off with a UHD viewing of STM just for good measure


Anyone else tried this or something similar?

That's awesome!

The thing that always pops up when I see a reference to "John Carpenter's Halloween" or "John Carpenter's Escape from New York" is remembering that he's the only director (besides Robert Rodriguez I beileve) that had done soundtracks to their own movies.

Envy on you obtaining that mythical 4k of Star Wars! Very cool!

[dejan]

Ah yes that is true regarding carpenter composing the soundtrack for his own movies.


I love the Halloween soundtrack.....although it is a touch repetitive(or overly used throughout the flick).....kinda reminds me how Thau used the same cues in the SII donner cut--lol


Yes the 4K77 fan restoration for Star Wars is a little gem.


I actually did something similar for Star wars a few months back where I watched over a series of evenings(again all on Blu ray) a bunch of movies from 1977:

Smokey And The bandit
A Bridge Too Far
Sorcerer
Annie Hall
Saturday Night Fever
The Deep
The Spy Who Loved Me

Sorcerer is a great flick.....it actually went head to head with Star wars in May 77' and came out a poor 2nd.....but it's one heck of a movie.

I will go into more depth in a future post but I cannot emphasise enough the analogue goodness of watching a whole bunch of movies that are pre-CGI.

It does not matter if  it is Dawn Of The Dead , Halloween, Sorcerer, Smokey, Annie Hall, Deer Hunter,Coming Home,...….or indeed Star wars or Superman......these flicks have a tangible physical reality that is just being decimated by  contemporary filming making techniques.

I am watching these on a 100 inch wide screen(with an anamophic lens+ JVC NX9 8K projector)…...and the bigger the screen the mpre analogue physical reality goodness comes out of these flicks......and it's the reverse for CG movies!....they look worse on a big screen....or more like a giant video game

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 14, 2020 16:40:36 GMT -5 dejan said:

Ah yes that is true regarding carpenter composing the soundtrack for his own movies.


I love the Halloween soundtrack.....although it is a touch repetitive(or overly used throughout the flick).....kinda reminds me how Thau used the same cues in the SII donner cut--lol


Yes the 4K77 fan restoration for Star Wars is a little gem.


I actually did something similar for Star wars a few months back where I watched over a series of evenings(again all on Blu ray) a bunch of movies from 1977:

Smokey And The bandit
A Bridge Too Far
Sorcerer
Annie Hall
Saturday Night Fever
The Deep
The Spy Who Loved Me

Sorcerer is a great flick.....it actually went head to head with Star wars in May 77' and came out a poor 2nd.....but it's one heck of a movie.

I will go into more depth in a future post but I cannot emphasise enough the analogue goodness of watching a whole bunch of movies that are pre-CGI.

It does not matter if  it is Dawn Of The Dead , Halloween, Sorcerer, Smokey, Annie Hall, Deer Hunter,Coming Home,...….or indeed Star wars or Superman......these flicks have a tangible physical reality that is just being decimated by  contemporary filming making techniques.

I am watching these on a 100 inch wide screen(with an anamophic lens+ JVC NX9 8K projector)…...and the bigger the screen the mpre analogue physical reality goodness comes out of these flicks......and it's the reverse for CG movies!....they look worse on a big screen....or more like a giant video game

I remember Siskel & Ebert saying how great Sorcerer was- never had a chance to catch it though...

I hear you on the physical reality joy, too.... I'm currently viewing a vhs-quality martial arts epic "Legend of the Condor Heroes" made in '83 no cgi--- and really enjoying the fuzzy but 'real' locations.

I don't have the giant screen projector- but that's interesting about how the real vs. CG images play out on them-

On the flip side, I still love the old matte paintings that used to be done pre-cgi-days.... while not real, I feel they had a special beauty to them that 3d lacks. - kind of wish if there were sequels to Star Wars that some of the old school techniques would have been kept...

[dejan]

@cam


Still rocking the VHS......sweet....I too have a VHS player....pull it out now and then.....kinda forces you to focus on the story and not focus on the picture quality lol


Agree about the mattes....a lost art......1979' black hole had excellent matte drawings.


had there been a donner SII IN 1979 as intended.....I am pretty sure mattes would have been used for the 3 villains destroying the likes of Towkyo paris and washington

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 14, 2020 18:46:01 GMT -5 dejan said:

@cam


Still rocking the VHS......sweet....I too have a VHS player....pull it out now and then.....kinda forces you to focus on the story and not focus on the picture quality lol


Agree about the mattes....a lost art......1979' black hole had excellent matte drawings.


had there been a donner SII IN 1979 as intended.....I am pretty sure mattes would have been used for the 3 villains destroying the likes of Towkyo paris and washington

The VHS-quality epic I'm watching was actually a transfer to dvd - ALL of my vhs machines died a sad death...but, oddly, I'm still keeping the vhs tapes of stuff recorded just for sentimental reasons.

There's a lot of disappointment on the RDC- but one of them was not being able to see a number of the fx artistry that was done during that time frame- There's a Donner shot (or second unit under Donner) sequence for the Mount Rushmore- Ilya Salkind said that it was completed- so why wasn't it there?

The fx house that was hired to do the RDC.... I scratch my head as I agree that the fx should have matched the time frame- but more importantly matched STM & its quality and aesthetics.

Even with something as simple as Jor-el/Luthor's conversation.... something as simple as the scale (if one compares how large Jorel's head is compared to Superman in the extended 2006 cut scene in STM to the RDC where Jorel is talking to Luthor & Teschmacher, apparently Jorel's head has grown 10 times) is way off.

With George Lucas' special edition, if it wasn't faithful, at least they were good effects!

With the RDC, the fx are mostly not faithful nor look very good!

Anyhow.... I'm getting negative again (trying to turn a new leaf and not be so negative)...

I totally agree that Donner would have used mattes for Tokyo, Washington, etc.--- It's a pity that the tech is almost all available now to restore SII the right way, (down to CGI doubles- almost)- but the cost would be prohibitive and I don't think Donner's aesthetics or heart is interested enough in fighting to reconstruct it.

Back when Singer had clout (or wasn't in rehab- I hope/think he's in rehab)- I can imagine he might have been able to back it.... but just getting the rights to Brando again at least opened the door to it happening.

I'm not confident that the footage would ever have been released without the deal for SR.... again, I guess better to appreciate what's there- but if it's not going to have a new ultimate cut, then I want my international extended cut in wide & blu of SII available already.

[dejan]

Totally agreed on all your points regarding RDC , CAM.

The fact of the matter is that Donner did not shoot the key sequences(or at least enough of them) of SII back in 77/78 to justify the claim that he kept maintaining throughout the 1980s that "there was a superior SII in the can" to that which was released theatrically.....this is what he essentially implied and he should never have done that.

He kept insinuating that his Daily Planet SII opening was superior to the Eiffel Tower sequence.

I bought into this at the time(90s and 2000s).....generating an almost mythical like aura over this unseen footage in my mind.......and I was getting more pissed off with Lester for having pissed over Donner's vision and footage.

But when 2006 finally swung around the cold hard reality that there was simply not enough of Donners  work in SII(be it theatrical or the RDC) hit me square in the face.

What I found most repugnant was not even the untidy editing or the poor SPFX.

It was the lack of the key sequences---most notably those between Lois and Clark at Niagra that Donner insisted that he shot(as he revealed in a key interview in 1989).

I had always assumed that he never got round to filming  the Metropolis climax and the "taking over the world" sequences.....totally understandable.

But to deceive  the fans into thinking that he had shot those absolutely crucial sequences between Clark and Lois(at Niagra and at the Fortress) was unforgivable.

Only 10 years had elapsed when he said in 1989 that the Niagra scenes were completed:
"it is really sickening because all of that was shot(the niagra hotel scenes) and they chose to cut it out!"

I do not believe for one second that he mistook those screen tests for actual footage...…..in my opinion he could afford to eulogize about the  niagra  hotel scene(whilst claiming he had shot it) because he probably never thought his own cut would ever see the light of day.

And whilst totally agree that Lester owes an apology /explanation for having shafted Donner in 1979...…

Donner probably owes Lester an apology!...... because his SII Niagra screen tests(as good as they are in the context of just being screen tests) are no where near in the same league as what appeared in Lester's SII...from the acting and editing to the production design and to the cinematography.

IMHO as always!

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2020 10:14:17 GMT -5 dejan said:

Totally agreed on all your points regarding RDC , CAM.

The fact of the matter is that Donner did not shoot the key sequences(or at least enough of them) of SII back in 77/78 to justify the claim that he kept maintaining throughout the 1980s that "there was a superior SII in the can" to that which was released theatrically.....this is what he essentially implied and he should never have done that.

He kept insinuating that his Daily Planet SII opening was superior to the Eiffel Tower sequence.

I bought into this at the time(90s and 2000s).....generating an almost mythical like aura over this unseen footage in my mind.......and I was getting more pissed off with Lester for having pissed over Donner's vision and footage.

But when 2006 finally swung around the cold hard reality that there was simply not enough of Donners  work in SII(be it theatrical or the RDC) hit me square in the face.

What I found most repugnant was not even the untidy editing or the poor SPFX.

It was the lack of the key sequences---most notably those between Lois and Clark at Niagra that Donner insisted that he shot(as he revealed in a key interview in 1989).

I had always assumed that he never got round to filming  the Metropolis climax and the "taking over the world" sequences.....totally understandable.

But to deceive  the fans into thinking that he had shot those absolutely crucial sequences between Clark and Lois(at Niagra and at the Fortress) was unforgivable.

Only 10 years had elapsed when he said in 1989 that the Niagra scenes were completed:
"it is really sickening because all of that was shot(the niagra hotel scenes) and they chose to cut it out!"

I do not believe for one second that he mistook those screen tests for actual footage...…..in my opinion he could afford to eulogize about the  niagra  hotel scene(whilst claiming he had shot it) because he probably never thought his own cut would ever see the light of day.

And whilst totally agree that Lester owes an apology /explanation for having shafted Donner in 1979...…

Donner probably owes Lester an apology!...... because his SII Niagra screen tests(as good as they are in the context of just being screen tests) are no where near in the same league as what appeared in Lester's SII...from the acting and editing to the production design and to the cinematography.

IMHO as always!

I think it's a bit harsh--- Donner shot so much in such a relatively short time- and when he was let go- memories could blur on what he shot and it's not like he has/had reels on his shelf to remember exactly what he shot.

I think one sad thing is true: if one doesn't want to be fired by the boss, don't say things to piss him off... but in Hollywood- Donner's not the first director (nor probably the last) to be fired from a project with another one brought in to take over (this just happened not long ago with Bohemian Rhapsody)... also, Donner had been brought in to take over for the ill-conceived "Radio Flyer" (impossible to make a 'feel good' movie with such disturbing material).

I continue to hear of different negotiating tactics in Hollywood that always causes conflict & it's not impossible that Donner's agent told him not to pick up the phone or whatnot when STM was a gigantic success. So could this have contributed to his own being let go? Who knows?

Still....

Donner built the foundation for the house that Lester took over- Lester is a 'good' director but I just wish he honored the original script and intent.
Lester could have done whatever he wanted (and he did) with Superman III- but I just feel like if I were in Lester's position, that I would have taken the big bucks and stuck to the Mank script, let Donner retain credit, and still come out looking like a hero for 'saving' the picture.

With DP jump vs. Effeil Tower- it is personal preference, ultimately...

But-

Personally, the RDC version of the "DP jump" to me is not really finished at all. The script showed there was more to it (Lois looks over & sees Supes in Clark's place as an fx)- and fan cuts and storyboards show that the way that Michael Thau approached it is definitely underwhelming and could have been far better. There was more footage that (according to the storyboards) was supposed to be shot and would have made that sequence much better than it is currently. The lack of score certainly didn't help.

Still- if there was official dvd that gave a choice to open with the Effeil Tower vs. DP jump- the Effeil Tower has some scale, but I just felt it kind of slow and prolonged after seeing all the rescues at the tail end of STM. The tv cut inserted the Donner bit with Supes passing the Boeing jet & it's a great touch to emphasize supes' speed & probably would have been nice to include--- but, as you mentioned- whether preferring Effeil Tower vs. DP jump is subjective. I just feel the DP jump wasn't cut correctly and the effects applied with a 'blur' isn't what they would have used back in 81 but perhaps the 'strobe' fx that we saw with the shirt-rip/flight in the theatrical.

Ultimately, what I feel is unfair in general is that the lack of shot footage (plus many poor editing choices) undermine the RDC as a full representation of what we would have gotten. If there had to be a board making an excuse for screen test footage- then why not put in storyboards for other major sequences & the original script for things that also were not able to be shot?

In any case, if Alexander could get four official recuts it would be nice if the RDC had another (better) one- but I have a bad feeling that with the lack of footage, Donner's heart probably just really isn't into it.. and as Thau put it- he could tell that even decades later, the footage shot by Lester still was so emotionally stinging that he was right that he wasn't the right person to objectively try to put something like that together.

For me, I still say storyboards or animatics to fill in the missing gaps.

[Metallo]

There were some great movies that year. DOTD, Deer Hunter, and Halloween are personal favorites. What strikes me as the variety of films as well as their quality. Not something we see now.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2020 14:21:49 GMT -5 Metallo said:

There were some great movies that year. DOTD, Deer Hunter, and Halloween are personal favorites. What strikes me as the variety of films as well as their quality. Not something we see now.

Agreed... but... I think the thing that's also different from before to now is the availability and amount of venues for entertainment.

Back then, little to no cable. No Netflix. No youtube.

If memory serves, those films also came out before BLockbuster rentals.

Quite a different world then....

[dejan]

Jul 16, 2020 14:18:00 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 16, 2020 10:14:17 GMT -5 dejan said:

Totally agreed on all your points regarding RDC , CAM.

The fact of the matter is that Donner did not shoot the key sequences(or at least enough of them) of SII back in 77/78 to justify the claim that he kept maintaining throughout the 1980s that "there was a superior SII in the can" to that which was released theatrically.....this is what he essentially implied and he should never have done that.

He kept insinuating that his Daily Planet SII opening was superior to the Eiffel Tower sequence.

I bought into this at the time(90s and 2000s).....generating an almost mythical like aura over this unseen footage in my mind.......and I was getting more pissed off with Lester for having pissed over Donner's vision and footage.

But when 2006 finally swung around the cold hard reality that there was simply not enough of Donners  work in SII(be it theatrical or the RDC) hit me square in the face.

What I found most repugnant was not even the untidy editing or the poor SPFX.

It was the lack of the key sequences---most notably those between Lois and Clark at Niagra that Donner insisted that he shot(as he revealed in a key interview in 1989).

I had always assumed that he never got round to filming  the Metropolis climax and the "taking over the world" sequences.....totally understandable.

But to deceive  the fans into thinking that he had shot those absolutely crucial sequences between Clark and Lois(at Niagra and at the Fortress) was unforgivable.

Only 10 years had elapsed when he said in 1989 that the Niagra scenes were completed:
"it is really sickening because all of that was shot(the niagra hotel scenes) and they chose to cut it out!"

I do not believe for one second that he mistook those screen tests for actual footage...…..in my opinion he could afford to eulogize about the  niagra  hotel scene(whilst claiming he had shot it) because he probably never thought his own cut would ever see the light of day.

And whilst totally agree that Lester owes an apology /explanation for having shafted Donner in 1979...…

Donner probably owes Lester an apology!...... because his SII Niagra screen tests(as good as they are in the context of just being screen tests) are no where near in the same league as what appeared in Lester's SII...from the acting and editing to the production design and to the cinematography.

IMHO as always!

I think it's a bit harsh--- Donner shot so much in such a relatively short time- and when he was let go- memories could blur on what he shot and it's not like he has/had reels on his shelf to remember exactly what he shot.

I think one sad thing is true: if one doesn't want to be fired by the boss, don't say things to piss him off... but in Hollywood- Donner's not the first director (nor probably the last) to be fired from a project with another one brought in to take over (this just happened not long ago with Bohemian Rhapsody)... also, Donner had been brought in to take over for the ill-conceived "Radio Flyer" (impossible to make a 'feel good' movie with such disturbing material).

I continue to hear of different negotiating tactics in Hollywood that always causes conflict & it's not impossible that Donner's agent told him not to pick up the phone or whatnot when STM was a gigantic success. So could this have contributed to his own being let go? Who knows?

Still....

Donner built the foundation for the house that Lester took over- Lester is a 'good' director but I just wish he honored the original script and intent.
Lester could have done whatever he wanted (and he did) with Superman III- but I just feel like if I were in Lester's position, that I would have taken the big bucks and stuck to the Mank script, let Donner retain credit, and still come out looking like a hero for 'saving' the picture.

With DP jump vs. Effeil Tower- it is personal preference, ultimately...

But-

Personally, the RDC version of the "DP jump" to me is not really finished at all. The script showed there was more to it (Lois looks over & sees Supes in Clark's place as an fx)- and fan cuts and storyboards show that the way that Michael Thau approached it is definitely underwhelming and could have been far better. There was more footage that (according to the storyboards) was supposed to be shot and would have made that sequence much better than it is currently. The lack of score certainly didn't help.

Still- if there was official dvd that gave a choice to open with the Effeil Tower vs. DP jump- the Effeil Tower has some scale, but I just felt it kind of slow and prolonged after seeing all the rescues at the tail end of STM. The tv cut inserted the Donner bit with Supes passing the Boeing jet & it's a great touch to emphasize supes' speed & probably would have been nice to include--- but, as you mentioned- whether preferring Effeil Tower vs. DP jump is subjective. I just feel the DP jump wasn't cut correctly and the effects applied with a 'blur' isn't what they would have used back in 81 but perhaps the 'strobe' fx that we saw with the shirt-rip/flight in the theatrical.

Ultimately, what I feel is unfair in general is that the lack of shot footage (plus many poor editing choices) undermine the RDC as a full representation of what we would have gotten. If there had to be a board making an excuse for screen test footage- then why not put in storyboards for other major sequences & the original script for things that also were not able to be shot?

In any case, if Alexander could get four official recuts it would be nice if the RDC had another (better) one- but I have a bad feeling that with the lack of footage, Donner's heart probably just really isn't into it.. and as Thau put it- he could tell that even decades later, the footage shot by Lester still was so emotionally stinging that he was right that he wasn't the right person to objectively try to put something like that together.

For me, I still say storyboards or animatics to fill in the missing gaps.

You make good and reasonable points as always CAM.
The reason why i am a bit pissed off with Donner with regards to his SII declarations back in 1989 is that he went into quite specific  detail  with regards to the Daily Planet jump scene...right down to the shots and dialogue.......given the fact that the best part of 10 years had elapsed by that point ...…….that indicated to me that he remembered what he shot just fine.
You have to remember Donner lived and breathed that picture for 2 straight years so all the salient scenes (and the Niagra identity reveal is one of them----hey they used it as a screen test!) would have been accurately recalled even decades later.
For me he straight out lied or at the very least embellished what he had shot for SII......all without anyone being able to verify it's quality for another 17 years(2006).

I am in absolute agreement that had it been completed in 1979 with Baird and Donner firing on all cylinders that it would have been a great scene.
But either due to the fact that maybe Thau was unable to find all the small cuts and takes and angles/coverage the what we were left with was a bare bones scene.
I agree that maybe having the scene which intercuts wthatever live footage survived + anamatic inserts would be an interesting way of presenting it.   

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2020 17:15:25 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jul 16, 2020 14:18:00 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I think it's a bit harsh--- Donner shot so much in such a relatively short time- and when he was let go- memories could blur on what he shot and it's not like he has/had reels on his shelf to remember exactly what he shot.

I think one sad thing is true: if one doesn't want to be fired by the boss, don't say things to piss him off... but in Hollywood- Donner's not the first director (nor probably the last) to be fired from a project with another one brought in to take over (this just happened not long ago with Bohemian Rhapsody)... also, Donner had been brought in to take over for the ill-conceived "Radio Flyer" (impossible to make a 'feel good' movie with such disturbing material).

I continue to hear of different negotiating tactics in Hollywood that always causes conflict & it's not impossible that Donner's agent told him not to pick up the phone or whatnot when STM was a gigantic success. So could this have contributed to his own being let go? Who knows?

Still....

Donner built the foundation for the house that Lester took over- Lester is a 'good' director but I just wish he honored the original script and intent.
Lester could have done whatever he wanted (and he did) with Superman III- but I just feel like if I were in Lester's position, that I would have taken the big bucks and stuck to the Mank script, let Donner retain credit, and still come out looking like a hero for 'saving' the picture.

With DP jump vs. Effeil Tower- it is personal preference, ultimately...

But-

Personally, the RDC version of the "DP jump" to me is not really finished at all. The script showed there was more to it (Lois looks over & sees Supes in Clark's place as an fx)- and fan cuts and storyboards show that the way that Michael Thau approached it is definitely underwhelming and could have been far better. There was more footage that (according to the storyboards) was supposed to be shot and would have made that sequence much better than it is currently. The lack of score certainly didn't help.

Still- if there was official dvd that gave a choice to open with the Effeil Tower vs. DP jump- the Effeil Tower has some scale, but I just felt it kind of slow and prolonged after seeing all the rescues at the tail end of STM. The tv cut inserted the Donner bit with Supes passing the Boeing jet & it's a great touch to emphasize supes' speed & probably would have been nice to include--- but, as you mentioned- whether preferring Effeil Tower vs. DP jump is subjective. I just feel the DP jump wasn't cut correctly and the effects applied with a 'blur' isn't what they would have used back in 81 but perhaps the 'strobe' fx that we saw with the shirt-rip/flight in the theatrical.

Ultimately, what I feel is unfair in general is that the lack of shot footage (plus many poor editing choices) undermine the RDC as a full representation of what we would have gotten. If there had to be a board making an excuse for screen test footage- then why not put in storyboards for other major sequences & the original script for things that also were not able to be shot?

In any case, if Alexander could get four official recuts it would be nice if the RDC had another (better) one- but I have a bad feeling that with the lack of footage, Donner's heart probably just really isn't into it.. and as Thau put it- he could tell that even decades later, the footage shot by Lester still was so emotionally stinging that he was right that he wasn't the right person to objectively try to put something like that together.

For me, I still say storyboards or animatics to fill in the missing gaps.

You make good and reasonable points as always CAM.
The reason why i am a bit pissed off with Donner with regards to his SII declarations back in 1989 is that he went into quite specific  detail  with regards to the Daily Planet jump scene...right down to the shots and dialogue.......given the fact that the best part of 10 years had elapsed by that point ...…….that indicated to me that he remembered what he shot just fine.
You have to remember Donner lived and breathed that picture for 2 straight years so all the salient scenes (and the Niagra identity reveal is one of them----hey they used it as a screen test!) would have been accurately recalled even decades later.
For me he straight out lied or at the very least embellished what he had shot for SII......all without anyone being able to verify it's quality for another 17 years(2006).

I am in absolute agreement that had it been completed in 1979 with Baird and Donner firing on all cylinders that it would have been a great scene.
But either due to the fact that maybe Thau was unable to find all the small cuts and takes and angles/coverage the what we were left with was a bare bones scene.
I agree that maybe having the scene which intercuts wthatever live footage survived + anamatic inserts would be an interesting way of presenting it.   

Thanks Dejan!

With Donner's memory- the reason I forgive it is maybe projection over my own memory issues--- the longer time passes, friends would point out things that I was dead certain was one way or the other and sometimes be proven wrong, without ill-intent on my part.

If Donner tried to deceive people intentionally I could understand why one would feel betrayed- but from what I've read about his character as a whole on many movies-personally I'd give him a pass (but not saying anyone else would have to)----

I really did want to love SII as much as STM and was fully open to idea it would be under any director who took over.
When the movie turned out NOT the way I thought it would be--- and then years later read the original SII production script that was supposed to happen & the extra deleted Donner scenes on tv, it cemented my irritation that a version that was supposed to be got really undermined by that new director, and didn't have to be.

But- on more positive note-

To me, storyboards with the original scenes as originally written would have been a better way to go, instead of including & hacking apart scenes from Lester that he didn't want to really include.... Making that choice to do so just made the RDC a poor representative of what might have been.

I still think (mostly) the extended tv cut is sort of the best of both worlds- the story feels complete, and there's a bigger percentage of Donner footage that's cut well.

Hopefully one day we all get what we want with a newer official cut that we're all happy with, but who knows if that would ever happen...,

[dejan]

I hear you on Donner's memory CAM and that is fair enough.

I know these days he could be forgiven for not having the best ability to recollect(although he still seems like a sharp cat to me)

But in 89' he was sharp as tack......he was probably  working on Lethal Weapon II at that point.

To declare that "all the good parts of SII(theatrical) are mine" as he did in that 1989 interview smacked of a certain arrogance(or maybe justifiable anger)

But  the audience should also  decide  what is objectively good or bad....as well as the creator.

And being objective in 2020....IMHO...and it is IMHO!....anyone and everyone will have their opinion.....this audience member(me!)believes that  the best and crucial parts of SII belong to Lester.

It is not Donner's fault....he never got a chance to complete his vision.

Had Donner completed SII in 78 as intended.....and then had Lester re-shot SII in 79/80 as eventually happened....then theoretically ,Donner could objectively say that his SII was better. 

Because it would be an apples to apples comparison.

[Metallo]

Jul 16, 2020 15:58:05 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 16, 2020 14:21:49 GMT -5 Metallo said:

There were some great movies that year. DOTD, Deer Hunter, and Halloween are personal favorites. What strikes me as the variety of films as well as their quality. Not something we see now.

Agreed... but... I think the thing that's also different from before to now is the availability and amount of venues for entertainment.

Back then, little to no cable. No Netflix. No youtube.

If memory serves, those films also came out before BLockbuster rentals.

Quite a different world then....

Partially...but those changes in variety began decades ago...years before most of the things you mentioned were able to even have an affect. Even with cable in the 80s and into the 90s there was still more variety. You started to see other genres output and quality decrease and change around the mid 90s and that had more to do with the rise of the blockbuster and fx heavy spectacle.

Lots of people saw those kinds of films more worthy of their time and effort as far as going to theaters and other types of films got relegated to rental status. First on vhs, then on disc, now it’s vod. A huge blockbuster benefits more from the cinematic experience than something like a romcom that cant get as much oomf out of a theaters audio and visual presentation. It’s more an issue of audience tastes and preferences than competition from other media. It’s the same reason the sitcom seems to be a dying tv comedy format.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2020 19:12:27 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 16, 2020 15:58:05 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Agreed... but... I think the thing that's also different from before to now is the availability and amount of venues for entertainment.

Back then, little to no cable. No Netflix. No youtube.

If memory serves, those films also came out before BLockbuster rentals.

Quite a different world then....

Partially...but those changes in variety began decades ago...years before most of the things you mentioned were able to even have an affect. Even with cable in the 80s and into the 90s there was still more variety. You started to see other genres output and quality decrease and change around the mid 90s and that had more to do with the rise of the blockbuster and fx heavy spectacle.

Lots of people saw those kinds of films more worthy of their time and effort as far as going to theaters and other types of films got relegated to rental status. First on vhs, then on disc, now it’s vod. A huge blockbuster benefits more from the cinematic experience than something like a romcom that cant get as much oomf out of a theaters audio and visual presentation. It’s more an issue of audience tastes and preferences than competition from other media. It’s the same reason the sitcom seems to be a dying tv comedy format.

It's funny- a friend of a friend told me about his bff that did a number of 'straight to vhs' kung fu movies that didn't necessarily sell in the US but overseas it did (well enough to keep going anyways) and even had an office at one of the major studios for awhile.

Eventually the person had to go back to the day job, but in hearing the story, was impressed that he got to 'live the dream' even if not on an 'A-list' level for many years.

I do wonder just HOW many 'straight to vhs/dvd' movies are in the universe that we've never heard of.... and probably keep on growing...

[dejan]

@ Metallo and CAM

The things that we desire(or crave) are only desirable....because we are deprived from having easy(or indeed any) access to them.

Once you make it easy it to obtain access it kinda removes the intense desire.

This can be applied to anything in life.

But as a relevant example: 
You will all remember lining up around the block to watch the likes of STM or SW at the theater back in the day.
The anticipation to watch the flick would increase the longer you stayed in that que! 

Now fast forward to today....you simply have access at the press of a button(Neflix Amazon prime ect)

Whilst rifling  through these flicks from 78'.....I have deliberately waited until the late evening to watch them...….makes a heck of a difference than simply ripping them out of the shrink rap as soon as they come through the post and shoving them into the player.

On a side note if any of you are interested in watching some of these other 1978 flicks without wishing to dish out the cash...….a few of them are on youtube.
 

[Metallo]

It really depends on what it is. Look at the last UFC event. Sold like GANGBUSTERS. It easily could have been pirated but people wanted good quality presented ASAP because they anticipated it so much and were willing to pay. Meanwhile WWE is pretty much giving away their events via their streaming service. What you get for that cost is astounding...but no one cares about WWE these days because it’s just god awful. look at their Free trials. Same with CBS All Access’s free trials. People can’t even be bothered despite it being FREE. I could have watched Picard and Twilight Zone for free for a while but I just didn’t give a damnm.
It’s the same reason Marvel is thriving and Joker made a billion but people stayed away from the first justice league movie in droves. If the demand is there people will go and they will pay.

[Metallo]

Jul 17, 2020 18:03:20 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 16, 2020 19:12:27 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Partially...but those changes in variety began decades ago...years before most of the things you mentioned were able to even have an affect. Even with cable in the 80s and into the 90s there was still more variety. You started to see other genres output and quality decrease and change around the mid 90s and that had more to do with the rise of the blockbuster and fx heavy spectacle.

Lots of people saw those kinds of films more worthy of their time and effort as far as going to theaters and other types of films got relegated to rental status. First on vhs, then on disc, now it’s vod. A huge blockbuster benefits more from the cinematic experience than something like a romcom that cant get as much oomf out of a theaters audio and visual presentation. It’s more an issue of audience tastes and preferences than competition from other media. It’s the same reason the sitcom seems to be a dying tv comedy format.

It's funny- a friend of a friend told me about his bff that did a number of 'straight to vhs' kung fu movies that didn't necessarily sell in the US but overseas it did (well enough to keep going anyways) and even had an office at one of the major studios for awhile.

Eventually the person had to go back to the day job, but in hearing the story, was impressed that he got to 'live the dream' even if not on an 'A-list' level for many years.

I do wonder just HOW many 'straight to vhs/dvd' movies are in the universe that we've never heard of.... and probably keep on growing...

LOTS. Im a cinephile and I’m constantly discovering stuff new and old that I was just not aware off. Depending on what you count there’s probably even more now with streaming and VOD

[dejan]

Jul 18, 2020 12:04:58 GMT -5 Metallo said:

It really depends on what it is. Look at the last UFC event. Sold like GANGBUSTERS. It easily could have been pirated but people wanted good quality presented ASAP because they anticipated it so much and were willing to pay. Meanwhile WWE is pretty much giving away their events via their streaming service. What you get for that cost is astounding...but no one cares about WWE these days because it’s just god awful. look at their Free trials. Same with CBS All Access’s free trials. People can’t even be bothered despite it being FREE. I could have watched Picard and Twilight Zone for free for a while but I just didn’t give a darnm.
It’s the same reason Marvel is thriving and Joker made a billion but people stayed away from the first justice league movie in droves. If the demand is there people will go and they will pay.

That's true

I guess you can have a desire(but you are deprived ) for something that is quality...…...e.g lining up in a que in 77' or 78' for SW & STM respectively.

Or you can have a desire(and still be deprived of) for something that is a pile of crap....like The Rise Of Skywalker......I still went to watch it just before the lockdown kicked in here in the UK.....I read the reviews(both official and bloggers) and they were scathing......still I had a craving to see it.

Now it's available on Blu/UHD I have no desire to see it!....in fact I have not bought it.

Much rather go for these quality films from 78'

In fact tonight I will be watching Days Of Heaven which I have personally not seen before.....it's one of Terence Malick's first films and won an Oscar for it's cinematography.

I seem to recall Donner being pissed off at the 1979 Oscars for not awarding Geofrey Unsworth(albeit Postoumusly) for his cinematographic work on STM.

So really looking forward to seeing (that desire I was talking about!) Days Of Heaven to see what all the fuss was about.

From my perspective It will be  like going back in time(for a couple of hours at least) to 1978  

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 18, 2020 5:58:19 GMT -5 dejan said:

@ Metallo and CAM

The things that we desire(or crave) are only desirable....because we are deprived from having easy(or indeed any) access to them.

Once you make it easy it to obtain access it kinda removes the intense desire.

This can be applied to anything in life.

But as a relevant example: 
You will all remember lining up around the block to watch the likes of STM or SW at the theater back in the day.
The anticipation to watch the flick would increase the longer you stayed in that que! 

Now fast forward to today....you simply have access at the press of a button(Neflix Amazon prime ect)

Whilst rifling  through these flicks from 78'.....I have deliberately waited until the late evening to watch them...….makes a heck of a difference than simply ripping them out of the shrink rap as soon as they come through the post and shoving them into the player.

On a side note if any of you are interested in watching some of these other 1978 flicks without wishing to dish out the cash...….a few of them are on youtube.
 

Well.... I agree that it depends on what it is.
Personally, I was the first (or close to) for the STM films (such a joy with chatting with strangers of all ages & races over the anticipation in line)- when it was at the 'giant' theatre in town...

But years later with Superman IV- I was also first in line even though it was premiering at the rinky-dink '2nd run' theatre, too. (The Line sadly was maybe 5-6 people!)

But... yeah, generally speaking it's true- the anticipation for STM came much from both Star Wars and being a comic book fan who never saw a superhero movie - at all!

That the Salkinds chose to 'tease' a lot of it by not actually showing any footage in costume was incredbily smart as well (I think Siskel/Ebert mentioned that they learned lessons from King Kong which showed Kong in tv ads/whatnot and was a box office 'meh'.)- The promos showing only big name actors flying in the sky made you feel like it was going to be the greatest film on earth- and for a young comic book fan, it was. (Thankfully it delivered then some!)

Also- absolutely right in that if you can click a button and not move your butt for something, it's NOT special per se if you don't have to 'work' for it.

On the other hand, if there was a brand new cut of SII officially on youtube, it would be special even if I did click on it.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 18, 2020 12:04:58 GMT -5 Metallo said:

It really depends on what it is. Look at the last UFC event. Sold like GANGBUSTERS. It easily could have been pirated but people wanted good quality presented ASAP because they anticipated it so much and were willing to pay. Meanwhile WWE is pretty much giving away their events via their streaming service. What you get for that cost is astounding...but no one cares about WWE these days because it’s just god awful. look at their Free trials. Same with CBS All Access’s free trials. People can’t even be bothered despite it being FREE. I could have watched Picard and Twilight Zone for free for a while but I just didn’t give a darnm.
It’s the same reason Marvel is thriving and Joker made a billion but people stayed away from the first justice league movie in droves. If the demand is there people will go and they will pay.

The problem now is "Free" is a really small allure now that everything seems to be bootlegged and put onto the internet.
(My dvd collection is overblown so I know Hollywood can't be pissed at me)

Picard was actually REALLY good for free, despite having new supporting characters that bored me to tears.

I do wonder if with the lockdowns (as does Hollywood) how it will affect or change box office.

The loss of jobs certainly is more important a crisis but on a superficial level I wonder if something like Black Widow which might have expected to make the regular billion prior to the lockdown, would now would have it's expectations far less to be a 'hit' behind the scenes.

On Kevin Smith's live show with Marc Bernardin, apparently both are still actively working in Hollywood- so the machine is still going with scripting and everything else I imagine BUT actual shooting.* Glad it hasn't come to a complete halt. *(Unless one goes to New Zealand to shoot an Avatar 2)

[dejan]

Jul 18, 2020 16:07:29 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 18, 2020 5:58:19 GMT -5 dejan said:

@ Metallo and CAM

The things that we desire(or crave) are only desirable....because we are deprived from having easy(or indeed any) access to them.

Once you make it easy it to obtain access it kinda removes the intense desire.

This can be applied to anything in life.

But as a relevant example: 
You will all remember lining up around the block to watch the likes of STM or SW at the theater back in the day.
The anticipation to watch the flick would increase the longer you stayed in that que! 

Now fast forward to today....you simply have access at the press of a button(Neflix Amazon prime ect)

Whilst rifling  through these flicks from 78'.....I have deliberately waited until the late evening to watch them...….makes a heck of a difference than simply ripping them out of the shrink rap as soon as they come through the post and shoving them into the player.

On a side note if any of you are interested in watching some of these other 1978 flicks without wishing to dish out the cash...….a few of them are on youtube.
 

Well.... I agree that it depends on what it is.
Personally, I was the first (or close to) for the STM films (such a joy with chatting with strangers of all ages & races over the anticipation in line)- when it was at the 'giant' theatre in town...

But years later with Superman IV- I was also first in line even though it was premiering at the rinky-dink '2nd run' theatre, too. (The Line sadly was maybe 5-6 people!)

But... yeah, generally speaking it's true- the anticipation for STM came much from both Star Wars and being a comic book fan who never saw a superhero movie - at all!

That the Salkinds chose to 'tease' a lot of it by not actually showing any footage in costume was incredbily smart as well (I think Siskel/Ebert mentioned that they learned lessons from King Kong which showed Kong in tv ads/whatnot and was a box office 'meh'.)- The promos showing only big name actors flying in the sky made you feel like it was going to be the greatest film on earth- and for a young comic book fan, it was. (Thankfully it delivered then some!)

Also- absolutely right in that if you can click a button and not move your butt for something, it's NOT special per se if you don't have to 'work' for it.

On the other hand, if there was a brand new cut of SII officially on youtube, it would be special even if I did click on it.

Totally envy you being in the que winding round the block for STM.

However I was in line for SIV in the summer of 87'(aged 12)...and it was at the same theater that I had seen the double bill of STM and SII in 81'.

To this day it is the most deluding cinematic experience I have ever had......mainly because in the arc of 6 short years(1981-1987)from my perspective....the Superman franchise had descended from an all time high....to an all time low

I just remember leaving that theater thinking how the same place had given me such an inspirational shot in the arm in 1981(for the double bill) was now instilling such a disappointing hollow feeling.

To this day I wish they never made SIV -----having said that there were other kids born in an around that time.....for whom SIV was their first Superman movie......and they loved it......including Oliver Harper(another Cambridge native):

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYQMAuMr3Tc

As Donner just said in that recent interview:
"we all see something different" 

[dejan]

On another note


Watched Days Of Heaven last night on Blu ray....having never seen it before.


This was the film that won an Oscar for cinematography at the 1979 awards......amazingly STM was not even nominated....much to Donner's chagrin.

I have to say of the all the 1978 movies(excluding STM) I have seen so far this is the most beautiful looking one.

If you think of the smallville sequences from STM...………...Days Of Heaven is like that for the whole flick!....but it is a surprisingly short movie clocking in at roughly 90mins.

A modern gem of American cinema(but being a Terence Mallick film....it is not to everyone's tastes----it is to mine!)...….I highly recommend it if you have never seen it before...…...but it still ain't no STM  

On edit:

Transpires that Days Of Heaven, like STM, also shot it's iconic wheatfield sequences in Alberta, Canada  in 1976.....Terence Mallick then spent 2 more years editing the movie for it's 78' release.

[dejan]

Tonight will be watching a film called called King Of The Gypsies.


It was released on 20th December 1978 ......which put it into direct competition with a lill' ol movie called STM(released 15th Dec 1978)


A poster for the flick was on the newspaper stand that gets blown over by Zod in SII.




Film also featured the debut of a very young Eric Roberts (then 18)----he would pop up in the Dark Knight as Salvatore Maroni 28 years later!

Often wonder if Chris Reeves had survived which super hero flick he would shown up in for the odd cameo.

Anyways looking forward to it as have never  seen it before.

[crazy_asian_man]

Totally envy you being in the que winding round the block for STM.

However I was in line for SIV in the summer of 87'(aged 12)...and it was at the same theater that I had seen the double bill of STM and SII in 81'.

To this day it is the most deluding cinematic experience I have ever had......mainly because in the arc of 6 short years(1981-1987)from my perspective....the Superman franchise had descended from an all time high....to an all time low

I just remember leaving that theater thinking how the same place had given me such an inspirational shot in the arm in 1981(for the double bill) was now instilling such a disappointing hollow feeling.

To this day I wish they never made SIV -----having said that there were other kids born in an around that time.....for whom SIV was their first Superman movie......and they loved it......including Oliver Harper(another Cambridge native):

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYQMAuMr3Tc

As Donner just said in that recent interview:
"we all see something different" 

I'm curious- was the double bill your first viewing of both STM/SII? I imagine if I did see STM/SII as a double as a first experience- that my own experience might be greatly different on both.

I hear you on the disappointment- I had been so thrilled when it was announced that SIV with the cast was coming back, and the articles in magazines like Starlog gave me even more hope...

Then- little by little- from the 'hey, why is this not playing in the big theatre in town first?', to 'hey why is there only five people in line', to 'hey, why do the flying titles look so... cheap?', to 'why on earth is Superman looking like a piece of flying cardboard in the first shot?'---- I got giant letdown moments from then on.... but even so, I still went back to see it in the 2nd run theatre multiple times.... poor Reeve Superman better than nothing at all I thought!