atp
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Post by atp on Oct 29, 2010 11:45:58 GMT -5
I don't wanna give away any details (mostly because you guys have made it clear on this thread that you don't care anymore either way), but some BIG things are coming soon. Not sure when it'll be done, not even sure IF it can be done. But rest assured, you are all going to see a Superman 2 like you've never seen before. And before you ask ATP, no I won't be hiring Terrance Stamp to come in to record new dialogue. PM CAM and ask him to show you his "Villains Rule the World' scene. No you don't have to hire Terence Stamp to record dialogue. You could probably get an actor to loop it. Or even dub clips from other Stamp line readings. Anyway, I had an idea that could maybe help you out. Instead of using actors, could you create the scene in CGI? In your new version, I presume you will have some CGI effects for the Superman loss of powers, so you can do it for the villains too? |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Oct 29, 2010 13:50:09 GMT -5
Anyway, I had an idea that could maybe help you out. Instead of using actors, could you create the scene in CGI? In your new version, I presume you will have some CGI effects for the Superman loss of powers, so you can do it for the villains too? Again, I have no idea if you're being sarcastic. You say "I have an idea, do it in CGI" like you haven't said it A MILLION TIMES already. Anyway, no new effects for de-powering. Also, I'm gonna be using either Sony Vegas, Adobe Aftereffects, or Final Cut Pro. I've never taken on anything like this before. To be honest, I don't even know if these programs even create CGI. I'm only interested in rotoscoping. I wanted to keep this on the D.L. but screw it, you're curious. Here's what I plan on doing with rotoscoping: 1. Superman consults Jor-el after turning back time. This will explain why Jor-el still talks to Superman after he disobeys him. I plan on simply re-arranging the dialogue from the deleted scene from S1 (after his first night), as well as a shot from S2. 2. Superman passes the Concord. I recently remembered that I have Airplane '79: The Concord. It's been sitting on my dad's dvd shelf, still in the shrinkwrap, covered in dust, for years. So I plan on recreating the Selutron scene where Supes waves to the pilots. CAM has already taken a stab at this, but I wanna replace a few Superman shots since I'll be using them elsewhere. 3. Superman flies out of the fortress to get dinner (instead of simply walking out of frame). CAM already did this, but I wanna try it as well. 4. Superman does loop-de-loops while getting dinner. Should be a simple shot to accomplish. Just to add more to the scene. Also just another scripted scene that never got filmed, so I wanna try to get it in. 5. Superman brings a car back with him to the FOS. I want this plothole to finally be put to rest. I plan on using the shot from S3 where he's carrying Richard Pryor, and replace Pryor with a car. 6. A scene where, on his trek back to the fortress, Clark gives up and falls face-down into the snow. Then he thinks of Lois, as well as all of humanity, and gets the willpower to get to his feet and carry on. I plan on using some shots from 'Somewhere in Time". Not sure if I can pull this off, but I will be attempting it. 7. The re-powering will get the most work done. I plan on (again) using shots from Superman 3. As well as some flying shots from the film "Firefox" in order to show Superman flying really fast over the arctic mountains. 8. I've discussed this a million times before, but I do plan on trying to get Supes to spin Zod really fast. I may even use the "wind gags" that Lester shot for the "wind breath" scene. The wigs falling off, the ice-cream, the telephone booth, etc.. I know there's a collective groan during these scenes, but I think if these gags are used in a different context (meaning it's all happening while Superman has the upper hand) it can be used for better effect. Considering all the bystanders are already laughing when he's doing this, might as well add more humor to the scene. 9. I don't wanna give away one of the new scenes Booshman has done for his new fan cut of S2, but I plan on re-working it somewhat, and adding more to the scene. It happens at the FOS when the villains show up. 10. I wanna show the FOS actually crumbling when Supes uses his heat vision to destroy it, as opposed to simply re-hashing the shots from S1 when the FOS is being created (as Thau did). I also plan on re-doing EVERY flying shot in S2 that Lester used miniatures for, and will replace them with unused flying shots of Reeve from the KCOP of S1 and S3. |
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Post by Kamdan on Oct 30, 2010 11:14:15 GMT -5
You know, that is a REALLY good idea to use the Jor-El and Superman scene from Superman: The Movie in Superman II. It brings up the idea of the only way Superman can be fully invested with Lois is to give up his responsibilities.
BIG PLUS for recreating the Selutron Concorde scene. I REALLY want to see that again. Is CAM's footage available?
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Rod
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Post by Rod on Oct 30, 2010 17:17:35 GMT -5
Great ideas, Tyler. Keep it up!  Dont worry with ATP. One can imagine his final words: "I just wanted villains....cgi villains...going around the world (to rule it)...*last sight*" ;D |
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atp
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Post by atp on Oct 31, 2010 4:27:49 GMT -5
Exactly. We NEED that scene. And we need villains.
Mr Durden, try to do it please.
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Post by snoopkryptodog on Oct 31, 2010 7:27:20 GMT -5
Tyler, I love most of your ideas, particularly a conversation with Jor-El that clearly identifies the fact that Supes must lose his powers because he irresponsibly turned back time. It fills a major plothole and bridges the gap between the first and second films. I'm still not convinced comedic reaction shots will work in your cut. It'll break the more serious, action-oriented tone of most of your cuts have established and potentially turn a cool effect (superspeed spinning) into a potentially cheesy add on played for laughs rather than a wow factor. And while it's great you're thinking of having Supes bring a car to the FOS (that plot hole drives me nuts too), why would he? He's Superman - he can fly. Also, where did he get the car from? Clark doesn't drive. Is it Lois'? Did he rent it? Superman can't be stealing cars! This seems a minor point, but plugging up one plot hole may create another and confuse an audience. If he's planning to give up his powers, meaning he knows he'll need the car, make sure that the fact is established, or else the audience will be left scratching their heads. Maybe some lines from other films could be used as voiceovers while he flies with the car? "It is forbidden to interfere with human history (Jor-El) ... Love no one above another. It isn't fair (I'm paraphrasing this line from SIV, when Supes talks to Lois after flying around the planet with her) ... if you are going to live as one of them, you must become one of them (Jor-El)." I actually had an idea of my own idea of describing how the car got there a few years back, but it would be too difficult to edit so I never bothered with it. I'm not recommending you use it; this was just an exercise I went through to sharpen my own story editing skills. Part of my impetus for laying out a new scene is that I've never bought that Superman would simply step into the chamber. Sure, he's supposed to be behaving irrationally because he loves Lois, but I've wondered if the scene would have more impact if he thought about it, long and hard, and did it anyway. So ... -Jor El prepares the chamber -Supes steps towards it; looks at Jor El, then Lois -he stops, agonized -he flies away -Lois cries; Jor El smiles, assuming Supes has chosen to keep his powers -Supes travels the world; hears disaster after disaster (I'd scoop footage from SIII and SIV - tornados, volcanos, subway crashes, shuttles in danger, but omit any footage of Supes intervening) -voice over reprise of his line from the depowering scene: "Will there ever come a time when I've served enough?" -fade in on a dead ringer for Clark (shot from behind), holding his wife's hand in a restaurant (she's a double for Lois, but we don't see either of their faces); for a second, we believe he's given up his powers -instead, we see the real Supes driving out of a car rental spot across the way; he notices his double, smiles -cut to Supes flying with car: use dialogue I noted in earlier paragraphs -cut to Lois sobbing, alone; Supes approaches her; they kiss -cut to chamber; Jor El appears, absolutely stunned - even after long, careful thought, his only son is willing to surrender his responsibility to the world so he can love someone who wants Superman, not a mere mortal -Supes enters the chamber, surrenders his powers I also debated leaving the script pretty much as is, but adding a quick scene, after Clark and Lois make love. This scene won't work for your purposes; it was more a script rewrite than a proposed edit to completed footage. Clark stares at the wreckage of the fortress, as silent as his missing parents. Lois hugs him from behind, puts her head on his shoulder, equally aware of the wreckage. Lois: You've given up so much. Clark: Let's go. There's nothing here for me. Not anymore. Lois: How do we get home? You can't fly. Clark: I bought a car a few years back. Stored it here. It felt stupid. Superman doesn't need a ride. But when I'd finish talking to father, I'd stare at it, wishing I was human. That I wasn't alone. Eventually I stopped seeing the car - just a family riding in it. Loving me. Maybe I wasn't dreaming after all. He takes Lois' hand. She smiles - but can't keep her eyes off the wreckage. My story edits aside, best of luck with your edits and rotoscopes. It'll be nice to see a plot hole free version of SII - it can be a great film when it wants to be. It only lacks the light to show it the way  |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Oct 31, 2010 9:21:52 GMT -5
Those are some really good ideas man. I really wish it were possible to create something like that. If I could create entirely new scenes like that I can't even imagine the things I could come up with.
Anyway, I'm glad to see a lot of you are getting re-interested in this. In which case I'll give you all a small update. I'll be taking a short break for school but I am going to get to work on this at the end of December and work on things until the end of January. A month may not be a long time to work on something like rotoscoping, but for now I'm simply getting the shots and "lining them up raw", just to see if the pieces fit together enough and will play out without any continuity errors. I haven't finished my first idea yet, but it's about 80-85% done as an idea in raw form, and I know this new scene can work. I'll upload the video here in a moment.
The scene is my new take on Superman getting re-powered and flying out of the FOS. I'll explain the details of the video better once I've uploaded it and posted it here.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Oct 31, 2010 10:50:23 GMT -5
Ok, here is my RAW video for Superman repowered. www.vimeo.com/1636403001. Clark face-down. The Superman costume will begin to fade in over his clothes. 02. Jor-el begins to fade away. I hated how Thau had Jor-el fade out in the DC (it was merely a still frame that was moved off frame while it faded it out. Very amateur). 03. Back to Clark face-down - Superman costume will completely come into effect. 04. Jor-el fades away for good. Superman is repowred, thus Jor-el "dies". 05. Superman catches his breath. These shots will have the proper backgrounds when this is finished. 06. Superman takes a deep breath and opens his eyes. The bloodshot eyes, the beard stubble, the salt and pepper hair, and the dis-colored costume will ALL be edited and fixed to their proper look. 07. Flying POV shots. These are all shots from the 1982 Clint Eastwood film "Firefox". Thus the jet airplane in the shots. I will add a flying Superman into these shots and remove the jet. For the first person POV shots, I will probably do the same thing Donner did for the effects for the scene in S1 when Superman is chasing the missile over the mountains. It will be an over the shoulder view. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 31, 2010 13:25:31 GMT -5
I always thought it odd that even in the Mank script, how the car mysteriously appeared was never mentioned. There's a big 'gap' between after Supes is depowered (Lois is sobbing in the script- the tragedy aspect is more appropriately amped up in the Mank/Donner script)..... to the diner scene, so it's uncertain whether or not they just wanted to leave it to the viewers imagination or if they would have had some transition scene created..... no matter what, it does seem a little odd. On the flip side, the Mank/Donner version of the script doesn't have Supes fly Lois to the FOS. That being the case, it leaves open the possibility that Lois drove up to a certain point, parked, and Supes flew her from there off-screen. (It's a bit of a stretch, but it does leave an opening for the audience if they so desired to fill in the blanks in that version. Also, it's not really any bigger of a stretch than having Lois/Clark walk from the FOS over the arctic mass to get their car and drive to a diner as well, and that was in the theatrical) I don't remember who came up with the idea of a crystal 'teleporting' them to civilization, but that's a different solution, for sure. It would be in line with the teleporting that the Lester version oddly has, but that's a whole other can of worms anyways.... From my own pov- Early on, I imagined that Supes (over the years) might have thought of building a tunnel/secret location of sorts from the FOS in case he thought there was a need for a human being to be there at any point, and go back to civilization safely from there. If Donner shot a quick montage scene of Lois & Clark walking from the FOS to an underground passage, then show them exit to a location close to civilization and a shot of them walking towards it, it could help explain a lot. The mythic tone of the young Clark trekking across the north pole instead looks silly with the way Lester shot the older Clark walking across the north pole, without gear/anything else. (In STM Clark at least is carrying a backpack & somewhat bundled up. Still, to be fair, in the Donner footage of SII it is odd that Clark decides on bringing nothing extra on his trip even in the Donner footage when he's inside the FOS.) On the flip side, maybe the Fortress of Solitude isn't that far from the diner to begin with, and is within walking distance. Maybe young Clark just likes to take the scenic route the long way around.  As mentioned, addressing one plot hole can open up ten more. *sigh* |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 31, 2010 13:27:37 GMT -5
When life gets less crazy, I'll probably look into vimeo for some fresh sequences (including the tutorial) before the new year. Will post a link then. Selutron did a great job in most of his choices.
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Oct 31, 2010 14:08:32 GMT -5
That re powering scene is an excellent idea. I really like that and the cut away of Jor-El disappearing is a good thought. Good choice of clips from SIII, ...gonna watch it again |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 31, 2010 16:17:38 GMT -5
Agreed. Tyler has a really solid vision for what he's doing and love his ideas.
I've gotten invaluable feedback (and continue to do so) and good arguments why this or that should or shouldn't be included in a cut. Can't wait to see how his final scene (as well as his final cut) will turn out.
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matt
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Post by matt on Oct 31, 2010 16:31:55 GMT -5
Great Idea great video |
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Oct 31, 2010 16:46:48 GMT -5
That shot from III as he gets up,excellent.
Why they never scripted a 'recovery' scene is questionable. No one on set even had an after thought to do that.
Wouldn't have been time consuming at all.
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Post by snoopkryptodog on Oct 31, 2010 18:07:37 GMT -5
Tyler's outline for a recovery scene is as good as every seems to think. A lot of work lies ahead to fully achieve the vision, but it could be great.
And I just remembered ... I actually had an idea for teleportation crystals a few years back.
(Clark stares at the wreckage of the fortress, as silent as his missing parents.
Lois hugs him from behind, puts her head on his shoulder, equally aware of the wreckage.)
Lois: You've given up so much.
Clark: Let's go. There's nothing here for me. Not anymore.
Lois: How do we get home? You can't fly.
(Clark picks a crystal from the damaged console.)
Clark: I wanted to be as good of a scientist as my father was. I started developing a teleportation system, to help me reach disasters more quickly. I never perfected it, but it'll get us to the nearest town. We can rent a car there. It's ironic.
Lois: I don't follow.
Clark: I'd fly there sometimes, after talking to father about my responsibilities. I'd watch cars take the highway, going no where in particular, but usually filled with families. I'd close my eyes, imagine myself taking a ride. Loving a wife, children, no longer alone. Maybe I wasn't dreaming after all.
He takes Lois' hand. She smiles - but can't keep her eyes off the wreckage.
Damn, I wish I had a few million to reconstruct the film with CGI.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Oct 31, 2010 19:15:51 GMT -5
Here's another quickie. Not sure if I'll do any further editing on this as there's really not much to do except add new flying shots for before and after. I'll give you guys some time to think of what they're talking about.
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matt
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Post by matt on Oct 31, 2010 20:28:02 GMT -5
That video clip is in the same tone of the Superman and Lara fortress talk.
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Post by snoopkryptodog on Oct 31, 2010 20:30:34 GMT -5
I love the score here. The audio might need tweaking though - it distracts us from the scene, rather than enhances it.
I'm also not sure the dialogue enhances the story sufficiently to justify adding this scene. Jor-El spent most of the first movie telling Supes not to turn back time. Supes has turned back time. Now Jor-El says "forget it?" He also doesn't make a link between Supes having to give up his powers and turning back time. The scene works better in it's original form in STM.
Man I wish there was a way to construct new Brando dialogue - a scene where he blasts his son for screwing with the time space continuum to save one life would really add to the film.
The start of that concorde sequence looks freaking awesome though!
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atp
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Post by atp on Nov 1, 2010 1:39:22 GMT -5
Man I wish there was a way to construct new Brando dialogue - a scene where he blasts his son for screwing with the time space continuum to save one life would really add to the film. Couldn't it be done the same way The Crow was completed after Brandon Lee's death, or Gladiator after Oliver Reed's? I would have thought the technology is advanced enough these days. |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Nov 1, 2010 12:16:16 GMT -5
I love the score here. The audio might need tweaking though - it distracts us from the scene, rather than enhances it. I'm also not sure the dialogue enhances the story sufficiently to justify adding this scene. Jor-El spent most of the first movie telling Supes not to turn back time. Supes has turned back time. Now Jor-El says "forget it?" He also doesn't make a link between Supes having to give up his powers and turning back time. The scene works better in it's original form in STM. Man I wish there was a way to construct new Brando dialogue - a scene where he blasts his son for screwing with the time space continuum to save one life would really add to the film. The start of that concorde sequence looks freaking awesome though! You say you love the score, but the audio needs tweaking. Could you be more specific? Do I need to lower the music so that the dialogue is clearer? I've been having some trouble with that. Also, yes, it's definitely a stretch for Jor-el to suddenly go back on his word after all that was said in S1. However, I firmly believe that, had Donner returned and brought Brando back, they would have shot a scene similar to this in order to rectify this problem. However, since that never happened, I'm simply working with what I got. heck, had Brando returned but Lester was still in the director's chair, I think Lester would've done something just like this. It would have certainly been just as cheaply done as this lol. One thing I've been thinking about lately is something similar to what you said. Jor-el making Superman lose his powers would have actually been another similarity to Spider-man 2. How Peter slowly loses his powers over time because he's getting sick of it. I can just imagine scenes throughout Donner's 2 having Superman losing his powers slowly over time, eventually causing someone to get seriously hurt or killed. This causes Superman to begin to doubt himself, and let's Lois in, maybe even revealing his identity to her on PURPOSE. THEN at the FOS when Supes duiscusses this with Jor-el it basically becomes a matter of: Jor-el: I told you, it is forbidden to interfere with human history. You cannot love one above the rest. Until you go back and fix this problem, you will continue to lose your great powers. Superman: Father, I love her. I refuse to let her die. And you know what? If losing my powers means being happy with the woman I love, so be it!! Now granted, the dialogue would be longer and better than that, but you get the gist of it. A confrontation like this would certainly add more weight to Clark's speech when he returns to the fortress later on. Because now he knows how much he REALLY screwed up. And I gotta say, if Selutron's proposed ending is supposed to bring us to tears, how much you wanna bet that his Superman 2 plays out more like this? It probably ends with Superman going back and letting Lois die, thus humanity is saved from the villains and ultimate destruction. Oh and thanks for the comments on the Concord bit. I wasn't sure if I should just jump from Brando's face to the blue sky, or do a fade effect. Glad I went with that one. |
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Post by snoopkryptodog on Nov 1, 2010 21:18:58 GMT -5
Yep; the score's too loud for the dialogue. It may also be too good for this scene - I'm finding myself listening more to it than the characters, volume issues aside.
I also agree with you. There's a need for this kind of scene but short of hiring a Brando/Reeve voice double or patching dialogue from other films, there's no way to construct the kind of conversation the two should be having.
I do love the gist of what you wrote above - it establishes clear ties to the first movie, provides a clear reason for Supes to give up powers.
Given that you can't achieve that vision, short of redoing the entire movie yourself, I'm wondering if there's any value in keeping in a half-completed idea (though a great idea), possibly diluting your vision rather than enhancing it?
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Nov 1, 2010 21:34:45 GMT -5
Yep; the score's too loud for the dialogue. It may also be too good for this scene - I'm finding myself listening more to it than the characters, volume issues aside. Believe it or not, I tried this with 4 different songs before deciding this one worked best. The other 3 songs were 2 different pieces of the "Johnathan's Death" song, and the other is the "destruction of Krypton' piece that's used during Jor-el's final speech before repowering Supes. That music works the best IMO, BUT it's already used for the re-powering, so I didn't want it to be used twice. If you want, I'll upload the other versions for contrast and comparing. If a different piece of music will make it work better, then I'll use it. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 2, 2010 2:26:44 GMT -5
Snoopkryptodog raised an EXCELLENT question that probably applies to most all of the fan cuts of SII that try to incorporate fresh ideas. If the footage isn't there to fully realize a new concept and/or can't be generated to be 100% effective as 'real' footage, is that good enough?
Personally, I tip my hat to all the different fan cutters who try different things, all in the service of showing different ways to 'fix' a vision that apparently can never be realized the way it SHOULD have been done- but at the very least, one's eyes can be more open with some editing sleight of hand.
The RDC is sadly editing at its worst. Almost anything fan cutters have put together in trying to make it feel more like a full film experience is a step above, so for my two cents- EVERYTHING is going to be a bit of a compromise, so it's more down to the cleverness of the execution as a whole - even with the scraps available to the public - on whether or not a half-executed idea works JUST enough over not existing at all.
Personally, I thought I'd get tired of seeing new approaches at SII, but strangely, not- instead, it gets me reinspired and rejuvenates the interest in SII everytime someone tries something new. It's odd how in a way, while the RDC was a major letdown, it's got a fresh life in another (though unexpected) way.
I just wish that we could also hear from WB's dvd division whether or not they're planning on releasing a remastered DVD of the IRC and/or boldly going ahead with a Selutron version, if we can't get an extended RDC recut. Wonder if the STM IRC news is giving WB any positive ideas.....
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 2, 2010 2:58:39 GMT -5
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Nov 2, 2010 6:51:33 GMT -5
It got to the point with TLC and TDC were I had all but given up hope. But,seeing other peoples efforts is inspiring and gives a fresh boost of enthusiasm for SII. I love reading anything to do with SII, especially fan edits.
Without TDC we would not have the footage at all to plug in/mask Lester's flawed scenes and vice versa.
When am flicking through both cuts while scripting ideas for edits I think it's a great shame that Thau had the opportunity to cut together a superb sequel. (But,he was just a hired hand at the end of the day)
At the end of the day SII is still an excellent film,film makers today need to take note.
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