Some ideas for Superman 2

[crazy_asian_man]

The Eiffel Tower being destroyed will NEVER be in my cut. Way I see it, this "Villains Rule the World' scene that you think is so great, only works in the context of the script. Meaning it ends with Superman turning back time. That ending was shot and filmed for S1. Thus, this scene can no longer work in the context of Superman 2. Say what you will about Lester downplaying the villains destruction, but he at least understood that time would not be interfered with again. Thus the destruction had to be downplayed. Had Donner returned, he would've dumbed it down as well.

And since this multi-million dollar franchise would not obviously be ending with part 2, it only stands to reason that they did not exactly plan on making a Superman 3 where all of humanity hates Superman because he is unable to help humanity get back on its feet after almost catastrophic destruction.

I actually think that- depending on how far they actually were planning the destruction - if they didn't use time travel again (hope they wouldn't have) - something like the amnesia kiss might have been used (was Reeve's idea anyhow, the Lester script has Superman using his heat vision to make water for Lois to drink and it 'removes' her memory. Another new power by the Newman idiots) - as Donner is a romantic, but I'm sure he would have shot it in a far more creative way (and the dialogue would not have been so 'on the nose' so to speak).

But..... unless the world became like a Mad Max environment, and it was key cities that needed rebuilding, I have no proof, but I'd like to think that Donner would have kept the destruction of key monuments around the world---- including the Effeil Tower.... but with his help, have been able to rebuild it faster (if not the whole thing) in between Superman 2 and 3, had Donner stayed in charge.

Though it does make me curious...... once Donner and Mank trashed the world, would Brainiac be a real threat at all? Pity on so many levels that we never got a treatment from Donner or Mank on what Superman 3 would have been like.

It's rumored that elements of it entered into the "Last Son" Donner comic.....but it's hard to envision anything from that miniseries that would scream out as being the immediate next Superman 3 film under Donner's producing.

Anyhow- I agree that SII wouldn't have been the end, under Donner/Mank..... but I think they could have/might have skirted the issue of the Villains destroying the world monuments in SII by assuming that Supes helped rebuild the monuments between films & maybe put it as a headline or as an opener (just finishing touches of fixing the Tower or such before a new emergency arises) for SIII.

Hard to know how much Donner/Mank would have adhered to their own continuity between sequels. Wish they would have addressed how they would have dealt with the altered STM ending with Supes doing the time travel thing in their commentary for STM or SII.

Personally, I think Tyler was on the right track. Even if they got Brando back for SII for reshoots--- in order to use much of what they already shot for SII---- how could there be all that much difference in how Jorel treats Superman's breaking the forbidden rule?

By talking about it (albeit briefly), it at least acknowledges that it did happen and that Supes did bring it up. I understand why there might be a need for some tension, but ultimately if they were going to keep the basic storyline for SII, I can't see Jorel being to do anything else BUT just listen to his son's confession and letting it go, even if you did have access to bring Brando back at the time...

Anyhow, just putting it out there....

[TylerDurden389]

Thanks for the feedback CAM. Glad to see you like the idea I made lol. I may leave that scene in just for my own cut, but the one I put out for public consumption won't have it. Also, all I can say is WOW sarcastically at the "Superman heats water and makes Lois drink it" idea for making her lose her memory.

[matt]

Oct 31, 2010 13:25:31 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

And while it's great you're thinking of having Supes bring a car to the FOS (that plot hole drives me nuts too), why would he? He's Superman - he can fly. Also, where did he get the car from? Clark doesn't drive. Is it Lois'? Did he rent it? Superman can't be stealing cars! This seems a minor point, but plugging up one plot hole may create another and confuse an audience.

I always thought it odd that even in the Mank script, how the car mysteriously appeared was never mentioned. There's a big 'gap' between after Supes is depowered (Lois is sobbing in the script- the tragedy aspect is more appropriately amped up in the Mank/Donner script)..... to the diner scene, so it's uncertain whether or not they just wanted to leave it to the viewers imagination or if they would have had some transition scene created..... no matter what, it does seem a little odd.

On the flip side, the Mank/Donner version of the script doesn't have Supes fly Lois to the FOS. That being the case, it leaves open the possibility that Lois drove up to a certain point, parked, and Supes flew her from there off-screen.

(It's a bit of a stretch, but it does leave an opening for the audience if they so desired to fill in the blanks in that version. Also, it's not really any bigger of a stretch than having Lois/Clark walk from the FOS over the arctic mass to get their car and drive to a diner as well, and that was in the theatrical)

I don't remember who came up with the idea of a crystal 'teleporting' them to civilization, but that's a different solution, for sure. It would be in line with the teleporting that the Lester version oddly has, but that's a whole other can of worms anyways....

From my own pov- Early on, I imagined that Supes (over the years) might have thought of building a tunnel/secret location of sorts from the FOS in case he thought there was a need for a human being to be there at any point, and go back to civilization safely from there.

If Donner shot a quick montage scene of Lois & Clark walking from the FOS to an underground passage, then show them exit to a location close to civilization and a shot of them walking towards it, it could help explain a lot.

The mythic tone of the young Clark trekking across the north pole instead looks silly with the way Lester shot the older Clark walking across the north pole, without gear/anything else. (In STM Clark at least is carrying a backpack & somewhat bundled up. Still, to be fair, in the Donner footage of SII it is odd that Clark decides on bringing nothing extra on his trip even in the Donner footage when he's inside the FOS.)

On the flip side, maybe the Fortress of Solitude isn't that far from the diner to begin with, and is within walking distance. Maybe young Clark just likes to take the scenic route the long way around.

As mentioned, addressing one plot hole can open up ten more. *sigh*

Instead of having Superman and Lois originally fly to the fortress, They should start out driving to the fortress or halfway there. End the pink bear scene before Lois tells Clark to change into Superman. Then the next you show a shot of Lois and Clark driving north. Use or flip footage of them driving back from the fortress to go to the diner. Them driving there could explain them bringing clothes along. In the movie I assumed Superman's the journey from the diner to the fortress was not a really long one.

[crazy_asian_man]

Instead of having Superman and Lois originally fly to the fortress, They should start out driving to the fortress or halfway there. End the pink bear scene before Lois tells Clark to change into Superman. Then the next you show a shot of Lois and Clark driving north. Use or flip footage of them driving back from the fortress to go to the diner. Them driving there could explain them bringing clothes along. In the movie I assumed Superman's the journey from the diner to the fortress was not a really long one.

That's a good idea- if you don't mind losing the shots of Lois/Supes flying to the fortress.

The original script lept over the whole trip by having the first experience of the FOS of Lois cooking w/Superman at the FOS and a first kiss there.

I guess a modified solution would be:
1. Just show a flipped shot of the car driving from the FOS to the diner (from the RDC) instead going in the other direction instead. (weak, but it's better than nothing).
2. Overlap the dialogue of the end of the shot with: "This is your home?"-
3. Continue with the rest of that scene, but starting AFTER the two already have their feet on the ground.

To me, the shots of Lois/Supes flyling there look so nice, I wouldn't want to give those up.

[crazy_asian_man]

Also, all I can say is WOW sarcastically at the "Superman heats water and makes Lois drink it" idea for making her lose her memory.

Yeah.... Superman using his heat vision to turn water into (essentially) a date-rape drug always seemed creepy in the Newman's script. ;p

Still, the rest of the script from the Newman's didn't have all that comedy schtick that Lester decided to throw in at the end of the Metro battle. In the commentary Salkind said that he had some personal problems at the time and probably would have done something about pulling Lester back.

Again, another reason for me to eye daggers at Lester....

[TylerDurden389]

I actually like the idea of them driving to the fortress instead of flying. I don't really mind losing the 2 flying shots of them going there (the last shot as the approach the FOS was a miniature Lois and Supes). Definitely something to think about, considering the next step for my cut is to essentially fill in all gaps and plot holes this film is known for. Who knows, if things go well with this, I may change my fan cut title from "Superman 2: The No Camp Cut" to "Superman 2: The Completed Story", or something along those lines. Maybe "The No Plot Holes Edition". As long as it's not called "The Complete Cut" as I think that fan cut title is already taken lol.

[crazy_asian_man]

I actually like the idea of them driving to the fortress instead of flying. I don't really mind losing the 2 flying shots of them going there (the last shot as the approach the FOS was a miniature Lois and Supes). Definitely something to think about, considering the next step for my cut is to essentially fill in all gaps and plot holes this film is known for. Who knows, if things go well with this, I may change my fan cut title from "Superman 2: The No Camp Cut" to "Superman 2: The Completed Story", or something along those lines. Maybe "The No Plot Holes Edition". As long as it's not called "The Complete Cut" as I think that fan cut title is already taken lol.

Who knew that the FOS car would be almost a big a loophole as the turning back of time?

Now and then the idea of just going 'cold turkey' with most compromises and just doing a cut of STM/ SII as it was written is appealing......until one realizes how (with all the missing footage) the end result could look worse than the RDC for probably the same reason.

Again..... I totally would have preferred (if they had to) storyboards from the time of what was going to be to show off the vision.

Awhile back, Anchor Bay bought the rights to one of the Superman films ("Supergirl") & did an international cut release in limited edition to appeal to a small segment of fans who were curious.

If that's what it takes, it's a pity that Anchor Bay (assuming they're still around) or an equivalent couldn't buy the rights to retry the Donner Cut- but this time, putting in storyboards/ audio (if possible) where footage isn't available to show what Donner would have done at that time.

Or an animated version of SII following the Mank script. *Sigh*

[TylerDurden389]

To go back to my idea of Superman hearing his inner voices for my cut of S2 during my new scene of Supes flying to go get dinner, I have some new ideas to add onto that. Assuming there's enough footage and dialogue to work with (again, ASSUMING. I thought I'd be able to pull off the "Supes consults Jor-el" scene with what I had, but alas, it was simply not enough to explain what was going on), I'm thinking of maybe using the audio/dialogue same as mentioned before, but how about, in order to get Superman to obtain his used car, we have him fall into the junkyard with the shots from Superman 3? Yes I'd have to fix the color of his costume and hair, as well as his stubble and bloodshot eyes, but to me this could work as a GREAT moment to show Superman being completely helpless and lost as to what he should do.

Just picture the scene from 3 when he flies away from the bar/crowd watching him, and simply replace annoying Jimmy's voice with Superman hearing his father's voice, his own, maybe some shots of Margot from other films (and perhaps even some Margot dialogue from other films that would fit here appropriately), maybe some shots of world destruction from other films, and THEN he begins falling, and lands in the junkyard and screams. Then after he pulls his hands away from his eyes, he sees a car in front of him that looks like it can run. He smiles, then the next shot is him flying with it.

God, Christmas can't come any sooner. I can't wait for this semester to be over and can finally get to work on these ideas.

[crazy_asian_man]

I thought I'd be able to pull off the "Supes consults Jor-el" scene with what I had, but alas, it was simply not enough to explain what was going on

I wouldn't give up on that scene just yet. IMO there's enough going on there that makes it worth the effort. Brando has done so many films, I'm wondering if there's SOME dialogue out there that can be used & integrated into that scene.

(I did find two lines by Sarah Douglas for the Metro battle: "You should have left when you had the chance, Kal-el!" and "I'll find him!" from the Superman Animated series. Nothing on Stamp, though).

Having a hard time picturing the Superman 3 sequence w/the junkyard, though. Removing the stubble might not be that easy, nor the makeup on his face. There's a tutorial on 'face replacement' that I have not tried yet on youtube. Will find the link and pass it on.

[Knight]

I pretty much keep to what Donner planned all along,villains released at the end of the first one. (other wise the prologue trail seems redundant in STM)

As Lester starts it off by Non throttling that guard,it works fine for the start of SII-had the trail/verdict been cut from STM)

I never liked Superman turning back the world at the end of STM at all. It works much better at the end of II.

So,no matter how many times I have cut II to my liking the turning time back is always there. (as is the villains being released by XK101 in STM)

I like what Lex says in the deleted (but is in my edit) scene ''Even when you loose,you win''. -perfect,I love that line.


Quite like the idea of flipping the footage from TDC for the drive TO the fortress.

[TylerDurden389]

Ok, I got these files from a friend of someone who has a lot of good ideas for fixing up S2. A lot of his ideas have already been tackled by CAM or myself, so it's good to see that a lot of us are already on the same page as far as what needs to be done in order to "complete" this film. Here are some ideas of his that I hadn't thought of before, or ideas that I've thought of already, but he's made screen shots of how to effectively pull this off.

This first picture shows what should've been a VERY simple edit for Thau to create, but didn't. When I or CAM get around to doing this, I'm sure it won't take too long.



This next image takes the phrase "The son becomes the father, the father becomes the son" quiet literal.



I have more pics, but every media sharing website I've tried (photobucket, angelfire, imageshack, etc..) either says "servers unavailable" or "forbidden". I guess it really is forbidden for me to interfere with human history lol.

[TylerDurden389]

I plan on using a flying shot from S3, but you get the idea.

[TylerDurden389]

With this idea, Non doesn't crash into the spire when Supes punches him. He gains control of himself, using the shot from when the villains are freed. non will crash into it later.



All shots of miniatures will be replaced with live action shots.



An idea this guy got somewhat from CAM, replace Zod yelling "THROW IT!!" with "KILL HIIIM!!" from the RIC, and using the "FREE!!!" shot, will amp up the suspense in this scene. It also means that the "Throw it!!" shot can be used elsewhere.



Supes using Super speed to save Lois, but Non stops him.

[Kamdan]

Excellent idea of Brando and Reeve! Is this going to be in CAM's cut?

[TylerDurden389]

Nov 14, 2010 0:53:39 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

Excellent idea of Brando and Reeve! Is this going to be in CAM's cut?

If CAM likes it, I'm sure he'll tackle it. With his experience in this area I'm betting he could have it done in a matter of minutes. I plan on attempting it myself as well.

[Knight]

Having Brando form STM lifted and put in SII for the re-powering is a good idea.

The stuff with Non,it's ok but I rather he hit the building/tower whatever it is.

Looping Zod with that shot from TDC is cool,too.

Shots of Superman from other films is great,why not? Definitely a good idea.


-Had an after thought about the deleted scene when Olsen is showing Clark his camera. Has anyone tried looping from Lester's audio from the DP scene,

''Mr Kent,a gang of terrorists seized the Eiffel Tower in Paris''. etc

That would set up perfectly for the alley reveal/change...

-that little exchange between Jimmy and Clark. Cutting out Perry,of course.

-Probs wont work,sync being out and all,just a thought.

[crazy_asian_man]

Single shots are great ideas.....
But, rotoscoping it for even a couple of seconds takes a LOT more time than rotoscoping a single frame in photoshop.

Add to that, remixing sound, when you don't have access to the original elements.

Ideas are great, though, images and examples even better- to think about for a recut (hopefully WB/ Selutron looks at this too, in replanning a new cut) by people who DO have access to the original elements & can make an official release.

[TylerDurden389]

I should've probably just put these shots here in this thread instead of starting a new one. Lol, sorry about that guys. Anyway, there's a lot more ideas he's done, but since CAM and I have already done them (or something similar), I didn't feel like posting them. I recently spoke with a friend of mine that I lost touch with over the years and editing is his specialty. I'm hoping he can make this transition to REAL video editing quick and easy for me lol.

In the coming days I'm gonna be posting some clips of the stuff CAM has been doing, as he's allowed me to post them myself. I really want you guys to see some of the ideas he's done. I don't wanna say "Prepare to be amazed", but get ready to see some really good ideas that, with a little work and polishing, can help bring us the best edit of Superman 2 ever made.

[crazy_asian_man]

In the coming days I'm gonna be posting some clips of the stuff CAM has been doing, as he's allowed me to post them myself. I really want you guys to see some of the ideas he's done. I don't wanna say "Prepare to be amazed", but get ready to see some really good ideas that, with a little work and polishing, can help bring us the best edit of Superman 2 ever made.

As much as I appreciate Tyler's compliments on my work for my own home cut- I feel a bit uncomfortable to call it 'the best edit of Superman 2 ever made'---

(Again, as much as I appreciate the compiments on some of the ideas), most of the fan cuts I've seen of SII all have different preferred additions/ subtractions/ novel ideas out of the box. I don't consider one any better than the other, as it is just trying to gather the most interesting ideas on a film that was (unfortunately) never truly finished either in 1980 as Donner intended and (for the most part) never truly complete in 2006.

It's sort of trying to make the best of a bad situation, given that Donner was never able to truly finish.

Much like as Mav said for his: I'm primarily just making my cut for ME to enjoy, with my own preferences. Getting valuable feedback has been a great editing exercise--- and invaluable to get a second eye on much second guessing.....

But, ultimately, for my two cents, sharing links to samples ultimately hopefully inspire WB in two ways:
(1) that there are fans still interested in BUYING a new OFFICIAL version of SII - with improvements
(2) that, if they do approach Selutron or go the route of Selutron, that they embrace the best ideas out there. My ideas are just one of many out there, only difference would be that I put them in rotoscope form, using (mostly) footage from the series to reincorporate and use in different ways, much like Selutron offered.

So, anyhow- just wanted to offer my two cents on it.
The ideas that I've put out are only important in that I hope WB uses them in some form or another for a 'real' release, whether they work with Selutron or someone else. If other cutters who like to re-tailor their own purchased films for their own home use want to use them too, that's awesome.

But, anyhow, that's how I look at it...

[TylerDurden389]

My bad CAM, I should've been more clearer. When I said "The best version of S2 ever made", I wasn't talking about your version alone, I meant all of our ideas being realized. I was talking in future tense. Meaning, your edits getting noticed, along with mine, would lead to Selutron and/or WB taking notice. Maybe they look at our ideas. THEN in 2012-2013 when the films are released again, THAT package will have the newer improved S2 that we've all been waiting for.

[atp]

Nov 14, 2010 17:22:49 GMT -5 TylerDurden389 said:

My bad CAM, I should've been more clearer. When I said "The best version of S2 ever made", I wasn't talking about your version alone, I meant all of our ideas being realized. I was talking in future tense. Meaning, your edits getting noticed, along with mine, would lead to Selutron and/or WB taking notice. Maybe they look at our ideas. THEN in 2012-2013 when the films are released again, THAT package will have the newer improved S2 that we've all been waiting for.

I think it's impossible to have a "best version of S2" unless all the scenes from Donner's script are created please.

[TylerDurden389]

Nov 15, 2010 12:38:52 GMT -5 atp said:

I think it's impossible to have a "best version of S2" unless all the scenes from Donner's script are created please.

Wrong. The fact that NO ONE liked the re-hashing of the turning back time ending for the DC proves that every scene from the script does not have to recreated. And stop saying "please". Your manners are falling on deaf ears because no one is listening, and no one is going to do this for you. You are the only one who can make those things happen. If you truly wanted it to that is.

[atp]

Nov 15, 2010 13:02:54 GMT -5 TylerDurden389 said:

You are the only one who can make those things happen. If you truly wanted it to that is.

WRONG. There's one man here on earth who can do it.

[Knight]

-I must be the only one here who prefares the turning back world in II than STM. I lift the scene from I,no backwards footage of course and have continuous shot of Superman turning world back,as it's pretty obvious what is going on thus no need for Thau's (awful) backward footage also.


Just thumbed through a script from STM, I never realised that XK101 explodes,freeing the PZ Villains AFTER Superman takes Lex and Otis to prison?

So,Superman is pretty pleased with himself,right? I used the shot of him flying from the first night after Lois passes out and before the thief is caught DIRECTLY after Superman flys from the prison. I need a shot of dark skies panning up into space before I add XK101 going past the moon before exploding etc.

[Rod]

Nov 15, 2010 13:38:57 GMT -5 atp said:

Nov 15, 2010 13:02:54 GMT -5 TylerDurden389 said:

You are the only one who can make those things happen. If you truly wanted it to that is.

WRONG. There's one man here on earth who can do it.

Mr. Thau! Can you hear me? Where are you Mr. Thau?!