Some ideas for Superman 2

[crazy_asian_man]

It got to the point with TLC and TDC were I had all but given up hope. But,seeing other peoples efforts is inspiring and gives a fresh boost of enthusiasm for SII. I love reading anything to do with SII, especially fan edits.

Without TDC we would not have the footage at all to plug in/mask Lester's flawed scenes and vice versa.

When am flicking through both cuts while scripting ideas for edits I think it's a great shame that Thau had the opportunity to cut together a superb sequel. (But,he was just a hired hand at the end of the day)

At the end of the day SII is still an excellent film,film makers today need to take note.

The IRC overall gave me more satisfaction than the TDC as far as weaving in Donner- but the main two additional scenes that really felt 'complete' had to be (for the most part, even though I still have major issues with it) the DP jump and the last confrontation at the FOS.

I don't think Thau was a hired hand at the end of the day.
BUT..... whether it was incompetence, arrogance (why TRIM Donner footage that we've been waiting decades for???), or lack of materials----- a badly edited final product is still a bad final product.

If nothing else, until the new film and inevitable fresh dvd set comes out, I'm crying out for WB to release the IRC in dvd quality widescreen at the least.

[Knight]

I have never seen the IRC at all,need to have a look around for that. Any reliable links to it anywhere?

My problems with Thau are many,he had all that footage at his disposal and what he gave us was a let down,and the editing is really poor.

Yes, I too like TDP and the end Fortress scenes,respectively.

[Rod]

Nov 2, 2010 2:58:39 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Concord scene reconstruction
www.vimeo.com/16421776

Thanks CAM!
This scene is wonderful.

[Kamdan]

VERY nice, my friend. Great to see it again. Any place where I can download it?

[Rod]

Hey Tyler, this scene with Jor-El is a very cool idea to tie up both movies.

What I feel is that the scene needs to be more heavy in tone.
You see, Superman disobeyed his father and we know that somehow he will be "punished" as the movie goes. So the music there is not only loud - I guess it is lould too - but also very bland.

Have you considered the beginning of Leaving Home?
I mean, that opressing feeling of "be careful Superman, something is wrong"

[TylerDurden389]

Nov 2, 2010 21:41:45 GMT -5 Rod said:

Hey Tyler, this scene with Jor-El is a very cool idea to tie up both movies.

What I feel is that the scene needs to be more heavy in tone.
You see, Superman disobeyed his father and we know that somehow he will be "punished" as the movie goes. So the music there is not only loud - I guess it is lould too - but also very bland.

Have you considered the beginning of Leaving Home?
I mean, that opressing feeling of "be careful Superman, something is wrong"

Ugh, I already added that music in my cut for a different scene. In my cut the first appearance of the villains on Earth is NOT Zod landing in the water/Ursa lights up a snake. Since I use Selutron's "Villains in D.C" clip in my cut, I can't have those flying shots repeating themselves. The first appearance of the villains on Earth is when the 2 cops run into them. However, the scene as-is seems very bland and incomplete to me, simply because in the DC there's no music, and in the theatrical, the music seems like it's played for laughs. So I used that piece of music here. Also because when the music builds up, a new fate awaits those 2 in my cut. I won't say what (those of you who saw my cut know what I'm talking about), but let's just say that those 2 cops don't exactly show up later on in the Idaho scenes.

Since that particular cue of music sorta became the "villains theme" in part 2 (though I imagine if Donner and Williams had returned they'd have created new music instead re-hashing the old stuff), I'd hate to use it here for that reason as well. It wouldn't fit.

Ok, I'll tell ya what guys. I'll post the alternate versions of this scene and you tell me which music fits best.

[TylerDurden389]

Alright, here's the alternate ones with the same music that we hear when Jor-el gives his final speech later in the film, and another piece of "John's Death' music. There's actually ANOTHER one I did with another piece of "John's Death" music, but I seriously believe that music was the poorest for this scene.





Oh and before anyone says it, yes I know the music is still too high. The program I use makes the sound into 5.1, so when you hear the music in these youtube videos, it seems too high (I don't think youtube is ready for 5.1 yet lol). However, I can assure you that if you watch the videos in VLC media player and click on the 5.1 audio option, the music is the right volume.

[Kamdan]

How'd you get CAM's Concord scene?

[Knight]

The first choice out of those two is better,definitely.

[TylerDurden389]

Nov 3, 2010 18:22:16 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

How'd you get CAM's Concord scene?

Well, to be fair, it's really Selutron's Concord scene lol. CAM simply (or not so simply lol) reconstructed the scene exactly as Sel did by using the same shots and doing the appropriate after effects. To answer your question though, CAM and I have been conversing heavily for the past two years discussing our ideas to help improve our fan cuts. He sends me discs of his progress quiet often. It turns out CAM still had a low quality version of Sel's original Concord scene. I'm guessing he must've downloaded it off of youtube before Sel closed his page down. I also have the movie "Airplane '79: The Concord", and simply took the one shot and added the music.

Since we're on the subject, I do plan on putting this scene in my cut. However, the "main" shot of Supes noticing the Concord will most likely be replaced, as I use that flying shot as the closing shot of my fan cut. Though, upon further analysis, I realized that I don't wanna use the shots "as-is" by simply lifting them from the films (as I've done so already). Anyone who's seen my fan cut knows that my cut ends with Superman flying of to stop the Paris Hydrogen bomb. I re-hash a lot of shots from S1 (though I flipped them so they don't look TOO obvious), as well as shots from both S2 and S3. However, since I plan on trying out after effects in the near future, I may just change the final shot for the fade to black, in which case the flying shot in the concord scene can stay right where it is.

[Knight]

The concord scene,where does this originate in Superman(s) script. Is it at the end of I or start of Donner's II?

Also,is it true that one of the other scripted things that Donner didn't shoot was (correct me if I'm wrong) a scene were Superman returns to Metropolis and does the trick that Lester recycled in SIII as Superman steps into a car and gets out as Clark Kent. Is that right?

Was that set before TDP opening?

[TylerDurden389]

Nov 4, 2010 6:36:19 GMT -5 Knight said:

The concord scene,where does this originate in Superman(s) script. Is it at the end of I or start of Donner's II?

Also,is it true that one of the other scripted things that Donner didn't shoot was (correct me if I'm wrong) a scene were Superman returns to Metropolis and does the trick that Lester recycled in SIII as Superman steps into a car and gets out as Clark Kent. Is that right?

Was that set before TDP opening?

Concord scene is at the start of 2. Right after Superman rescues a fox and tells the hunters that they "should find better things to do than slaughter defenseless animals" (or something similar). Also, yes the end of the Concord scene did have Superman step into a cab and emerge as Clark upon returning to Metropolis.

[Knight]

I thought as much that it was for the start of SII, I had read about the fox hunting piece too. The clip of this (conchord scene) on you tube has it edited into the Paris bomb plot.

I would love to have seen how Donner shot the cab/change scene. On location in NY with Unsworth's photography,Chris looking excellent too. Shame. At least we seen it in some form from Lester I suppose.

Lester's Clark Kent getting hit by cab is ok,worthy of inclusion before TDP opening,(editing out Lois,of course) I haven't had a look at editing that really. Should do though.

[crazy_asian_man]

I don't feel comfortable yet uploading things high-res for all- Legal stuff and all. (not to mention a computer that has issues with loads) If it's members of the board who already own the films legally, then PM me & I'm ok working something out for hi-res of my composite work on it, if it's only to use for your own fan cut for home use.

So, even though others are ok with loading to the net hi-res stuff, I don't- mainly for worries about that kind of stuff in general. (Not in reference to any members here).

I bought the IRC at a big comic convention. Came in very nice packaging, but would have paid double (and preferred) for an official WB IRC release, so I'm not sure why WB would have any irritation at that....

[Knight]

Totally agree Cam,if they don't want others to profit from their work,etc then it makes sense they should release it.

I'd pay top dollar for 3hr/IRC cuts.

[snoopkryptodog]

Tyler, the scene is still bothering me. I prefer the first of the rescored clips but more than a score is wrong here. I don't think there's any value added in seeing Jor-El say "so be it" after Supes turns backs time. Why give up his powers later then?

I'm guessing the idea is that being Superman would put his earthly lover in jeopardy. If he was just Clark Kent, no enemies would come looking for me as Supes was already out of the way. If that's the idea, it isn't clear, even to a veteran viewer of SII. You'll lose the audience.

How about this ...

-scene as you've cut it until Jor-El says "so be it"; instead use one of the readings of "It is forbidden to interfere in human history" from STM (you'll probably need to use a distance shot as the lines won't match lip movement)
-Supes responds with his line from SIV: Love no one above another. It isn't fair." (I can't recall the exact quote but it's said at the end of the SIV balcony scene with Lois); again, you'll need a distance shot as lips won't match.
-Supes storms out (rotoscope from SIII, when he flees the cave to collect the acid he uses to blow up the computer). Concorde scene (though you may want to take out Supes' smile as he could still be upset - but now the motivation for going to the DP is clearer; he wants to be with Lois).

Now we have dramatic tension - Jor-El is pissed. Supes just wants love. More importantly, we have the explanation for Supes losing his powers - he turned back time, rashly choosing one human over another, potentially putting others at risk to save a single life.

Just some thoughts ...

[Rod]

Of course at the end of the day it is your cut, Tyler, but I have to agree with kryptodog here, the scene needs tension if it is gonna to be added.
Otherwise it doesnt seem to have purpose.

That is the nightmare of fan cuts: a lot of cool ideas!

[snoopkryptodog]

Nov 5, 2010 11:56:32 GMT -5 Rod said:

Of course at the end of the day it is your cut, Tyler ...

Great point - you'll do what's right for your vision, Tyler. Just adding my two cents!

[crazy_asian_man]

Of course at the end of the day it is your cut, Tyler, but I have to agree with kryptodog here, the scene needs tension if it is gonna to be added.
Otherwise it doesnt seem to have purpose.

Well-
The Jorel/Kal scene that Tyler has addresses the idea that what Supes did in STM did in fact happen- and that Supes would have brought it up to Jorel--- WITHOUT asking Jorel about this deed that's forbidden- the side effect to this storywise seems to be:
(1) That Supes is fine breaking Jorel's rules in secret, without telling him
(2) That Jorel looks like an idiot, because there apparently are no consequences to turning back time.

So- I agree that it is a great idea- but I see the inherent problem... that without enough footage (as mentioned), does it have enough weight to be included without some tension added to it?

Here's an idea:
If Jorel does say- "So be it"---maybe the insinuation is that the consequences of the time reversal aren't easily knowable--- so- cross-cutting between the conversation and the villains' escaping might be a possibility?

The connection might be too loose to imply that what they're talking about connects- but just putting the idea out there. It could add the tension mentioned necessary.

It's not impossible to lift dialogue from another Brando film that might fit...but I can see how that can be a monstrous task to go through Brando films to look for a line that would fit for the scene.

[TylerDurden389]

I appreciate the feedback everyone has given me here. With that, I have decided to axe this scene entirely. It will not appear in my cut. I had hoped that the dialogue would be sufficient to get the point across, but alas, there are too many ways to interpret it (as you've all shown me), and overall, I guess it really doesn't add anything more. At this point I'm just trying to find ANYTHING that can help spruce up this film.

The idea mentioned earlier (using S4 dialogue and having Supes storm out with footage from S3) does seem like a good idea. However, having tried so many ideas that I thought about, I can honestly say that, looking at this idea in my head, it simply wouldn't work. I'm experienced enough at this point that I can give an honest assessment over which ideas will work and which ones simply will not (at least, with my tools, knowledge, and experience. I'm not Selutron after all).

That being said, the only thing at this point that I'm going to try and attempt (besides the new re-powering) is the removal of Richard Pryor from those S3 flying shots and have Superman carrying a car instead. I know everyone has told me that, without any proper story reason for him to do this, we have no idea why he's flying with this car, and thus it doesn't work. I've thought about this, and here's my idea.

When Superman flies off to go get dinner, instead of playing the "happy" music that plays while he flies to that tropical island, I will find a piece of music that is a bit more unsettling and brooding. I will use shots from S3 where Superman is either thinking, or not feeling so good (when he's evil). I will then use the same trick they used at the end of S1 when Superman hears voices and has conflicting emotions before turning back time. I'll use some of the Brando dialogue from both S1 and some Reeve dialogue from S4 ("Never set one above the other. Love all of humanity instead. It's just not fair"). I'll have the dialogue being spoken over each other to show how confused he is. Then I'll show Supes getting focused. He has made up his mind. He knows what he wants to do. The music then changes to happy music. I'll make a new flying shot of Superman either landing in the junkyard (or maybe an entirely new shot, like a used car lot). Then cut to Superman flying happily with a car. Basically, I will make it as absolutely clear as possible what Superman is about to do.

The only possible alteration to this idea I have is, I'll have Superman do this after they eat dinner and hold hands. It seems to make more sense here because now they've officially made up their minds about what the two of them are gonna do. However, the ONLY problem with putting this new scene here, is that it looks like Superman deserted her when she left to go get changed.

[atp]

Nov 6, 2010 10:07:53 GMT -5 TylerDurden389 said:

At this point I'm just trying to find ANYTHING that can help spruce up this film.

I've got a good idea.

[Knight]

I love all the ideas that people have here for II,using footage from other films is a great idea,espc after the re-powering lifting footage from III,excellent. Creating 'new' scenes from existing ones is an excellent example of editing and being extremely creative.

My (0wn) rule while looking at two,is to stay with what I have. I keep within the boundaries of SII. Only if I must,as a last resort go to images from STM to fill in a gap. Otherwise I fear I would end up with an entirely different film all together because I have went too far from the source materiel.

I know it blows not having access to deleted scenes and IRCs with DVD quality.

[TylerDurden389]

Nov 6, 2010 11:26:25 GMT -5 Knight said:

My (0wn) rule while looking at two,is to stay with what I have. I keep within the boundaries of SII. Only if I must,as a last resort go to images from STM to fill in a gap. Otherwise I fear I would end up with an entirely different film all together because I have went too far from the source materiel.

For a long time I agreed with this to a T. I told CAM this a lot based off of how far astray his Metro battle was earlier on (like 2 years ago). However, I believe that in small doses, lifting other material works fine. Look at what Selutron has done. Way I see it, as long as it isn't material that's TOO familiar, it's up for grabs. I recently was on a website that listed every film that shows the twin towers (as I needed a new shot), and I wrote down the more obscure films on the list for future reference.

The flying shots in that video I posted earlier (for the end of the repowering) is from the Clint Eastwood film "Firefox". Now, call me crazy, but you ask any random person to name 10 or even 12 Clint films off the top of their head, I seriously doubt they're gonna mention that one (unless of course they saw it on cable that week lol).

Oh and as for what ATP said 'I have an idea", please read what I said more carefully. I said FINDING good material to help the film, not CREATE good material. Also, once again, my fan cut of S2 ends with the beginning of the Paris Hydrogen Bomb scene (alleyway reveal). The Eiffel Tower being destroyed will NEVER be in my cut. Way I see it, this "Villains Rule the World' scene that you think is so great, only works in the context of the script. Meaning it ends with Superman turning back time. That ending was shot and filmed for S1. Thus, this scene can no longer work in the context of Superman 2. Say what you will about Lester downplaying the villains destruction, but he at least understood that time would not be interfered with again. Thus the destruction had to be downplayed. Had Donner returned, he would've dumbed it down as well.

And since this multi-million dollar franchise would not obviously be ending with part 2, it only stands to reason that they did not exactly plan on making a Superman 3 where all of humanity hates Superman because he is unable to help humanity get back on its feet after almost catastrophic destruction.

So, that being said, give up on this dream of yours ATP. Unless you plan on re-working a fan-edit of S1 where Superman saves Lois, and you make that your official "canon" version, it will never happen. Also, instead of repeating the same thing over and over again ad-neaseum, how about actually LEARNING how to do fan editing, and create the scene yourself? In the 4 years that have passed since the DC was released, it could've been done by ANYONE who was just learning how to do video effects. heck, I bet Selutron has something like this already done when he showed his proposed cut to WB.

When I saw 3 or 4 different fan edits of Superman 2 in the year following the release of the DC, I knew no version would fit me. Thus, I learned how to do this, and began working on how to make my dream a reality. That's how things get done. You should try it.

[snoopkryptodog]

Nov 6, 2010 10:07:53 GMT -5 TylerDurden389 said:

I appreciate the feedback everyone has given me here. With that, I have decided to axe this scene entirely. It will not appear in my cut ... the only thing at this point that I'm going to try and attempt (besides the new re-powering) is the removal of Richard Pryor from those S3 flying shots and have Superman carrying a car instead. I know everyone has told me that, without any proper story reason for him to do this, we have no idea why he's flying with this car, and thus it doesn't work. I've thought about this, and here's my idea.

When Superman flies off to go get dinner, instead of playing the "happy" music that plays while he flies to that tropical island, I will find a piece of music that is a bit more unsettling and brooding. I will use shots from S3 where Superman is either thinking, or not feeling so good (when he's evil). I will then use the same trick they used at the end of S1 when Superman hears voices and has conflicting emotions before turning back time. I'll use some of the Brando dialogue from both S1 and some Reeve dialogue from S4 ("Never set one above the other. Love all of humanity instead. It's just not fair"). I'll have the dialogue being spoken over each other to show how confused he is. Then I'll show Supes getting focused. He has made up his mind. He knows what he wants to do. The music then changes to happy music. I'll make a new flying shot of Superman either landing in the junkyard (or maybe an entirely new shot, like a used car lot). Then cut to Superman flying happily with a car. Basically, I will make it as absolutely clear as possible what Superman is about to do.

Sometimes great ideas are outstripped by the possible. Your cut will be better for omitting the Jor-El scene, though I'm also sorry it won't work out. As for the business with the car, the way you described it is starting to make sense. Good luck with the rotoscoping - I hope you get the look you're going for!

[crazy_asian_man]

When I saw 3 or 4 different fan edits of Superman 2 in the year following the release of the DC, I knew no version would fit me. Thus, I learned how to do this, and began working on how to make my dream a reality. That's how things get done.

Agreed. It's not that hard to learn.... but the complications come up when dealing with trying to make things on a quality that feels like a professional film--- then... because you're dealing with something that's already been mixed together and cut together and you don't have access to the real footage... then life really begins to suck and compromises have to be made majorly.

I told CAM this a lot based off of how far astray his Metro battle was earlier on (like 2 years ago). However, I believe that in small doses, lifting other material works fine

Also, as Tyler's pointed out (as well as some others), having footage from the SAME ERA is/was a giant plus, far more than I would have realized.