Some ideas for Superman 2

[TylerDurden389]

Mr. Thau? Please. If there's anything these fan edits have proved, is that Thau was the LAST man who should be doing this. First he screwed up Superman 1 with that horrible new sound mix, then he screwed up the sequel. He couldn't give us what we wanted, and thus we had to do it ourselves. I've done a better job of editing. So has CAM, Verisimilitude, Jimbo, Booshman, and of course, Selutron.

If WB gives S2 another shot, they better keep Thau a thousand miles away. Seriously, I'll pay for a 1-way ticket to wherever else to keep Thau away from this project.

[Knight]

We should have seen what was coming with Thau's Cut after he added those stupid scenes in STM,Ma Kent,Hollywood etc

It's like Quantum Leap,I wish I could have lept in Thau for the time he worked on SII,job done.

;D

[atp]

Nov 15, 2010 15:07:53 GMT -5 TylerDurden389 said:

Mr. Thau? Please.

I think there should be a comma instead of a question mark...

[snoopkryptodog]

Getting back to some earlier points about plot holes. How can they be plugged in fan cuts? Here's a start - wide open to further suggestions.

1. lack of consequence for turning back time
a) reversing time cracks the phantom zone (alter the final footage of STM) - my personal choice; have some shock waves detonate the XK101 and the phantom zone
b) Have Jor El blast Supes for screwing with time (requires new dialogue; also introduces plot hole - if Jor El can see what Supes is up to, why doesn't he see the PZ break and tell Supes what happened?)

2. The car that appears out of no where when Supes gives up his power
a) rotoscope a scene of Supes bringing a car, knowing he's about to give up his powers (my choice and Tyler's idea!)
b) have Supes and Lois drive to the fortress instead of flying

3. What the heck happens to Ms. Tesmacher?
a) dub some dialogue where Lex says she has to die for failing him (possibly taken from other Gene Hackman movies, dubbed over final motorcycle scene)

4. New powers
a) reedit existing footage to get rid of any hint of those powers (many, many editors have done so very well)

5. Supes beating the living crap out of the bully at the end of the film. Would Superman really stoop to that level? Or use powers to that extreme?
a) I say sure he'd come back - beating up the bully could scare him off hurting someone else, but the fight needs to be toned down. No super spin on the chair!

6. The villains disappearing into the pit.
a) use the arctic patrol scene, but with camp edited out

7. Why doesn't Supes just zap the villains with red krypton sunlight when they enter the fortress?
a) I always thought he should be wiring the fortress at superspeed; the villains try to get in, get rebuffed by the force field, but break in - Supes isn't finished - one final crystal remains; have the rest of the scene as we know it except for one thing ...

8. How the heck does Lex know which specific crystal activates the chamber? Yeah, he knows about the crystals, but he grabs the exact one he needs - there are dozens of them!
a) insert a new shot of Non and Ursa trying to rip Lois apart (maybe flip a previous shot); dub Supes saying, tragically, "the crystal there activates the machine"

Debate away!

[TylerDurden389]

Nov 15, 2010 18:32:59 GMT -5 snoopkryptodog said:

Getting back to some earlier points about plot holes. How can they be plugged in fan cuts? Here's a start - wide open to further suggestions.

1. lack of consequence for turning back time
a) reversing time cracks the phantom zone (alter the final footage of STM) - my personal choice; have some shock waves detonate the XK101 and the phantom zone
b) Have Jor El blast Supes for screwing with time (requires new dialogue; also introduces plot hole - if Jor El can see what Supes is up to, why doesn't he see the PZ break and tell Supes what happened?)

2. The car that appears out of no where when Supes gives up his power
a) rotoscope a scene of Supes bringing a car, knowing he's about to give up his powers (my choice and Tyler's idea!)
b) have Supes and Lois drive to the fortress instead of flying

3. What the heck happens to Ms. Tesmacher?
a) dub some dialogue where Lex says she has to die for failing him (possibly taken from other Gene Hackman movies, dubbed over final motorcycle scene)

4. New powers
a) reedit existing footage to get rid of any hint of those powers (many, many editors have done so very well)

5. Supes beating the living crap out of the bully at the end of the film. Would Superman really stoop to that level? Or use powers to that extreme?
a) I say sure he'd come back - beating up the bully could scare him off hurting someone else, but the fight needs to be toned down. No super spin on the chair!

6. The villains disappearing into the pit.
a) use the arctic patrol scene, but with camp edited out

7. Why doesn't Supes just zap the villains with red krypton sunlight when they enter the fortress?
a) I always thought he should be wiring the fortress at superspeed; the villains try to get in, get rebuffed by the force field, but break in - Supes isn't finished - one final crystal remains; have the rest of the scene as we know it except for one thing ...

8. How the heck does Lex know which specific crystal activates the chamber? Yeah, he knows about the crystals, but he grabs the exact one he needs - there are dozens of them!
a) insert a new shot of Non and Ursa trying to rip Lois apart (maybe flip a previous shot); dub Supes saying, tragically, "the crystal there activates the machine"

Debate away!

You ask the impossible (for the most part). With the exception of Superman bringing a car to the fortress (a scene I plan on doing even though I'm getting negative comments from it), and Jor-el talking to Supes about disobeying him (something I also did that was also met with negative criticism), I don't see how most of this could be done.

[matt]

Superman II isn't shot in real time so everything can't be explained away. For me I just assumed they made arrangements on the car situation. I assumed Miss Tessmacher went into hiding. Everything can't be explained away like how does Lex get from the North Pole to Washington D.C., again I assumed he traveled on an air plane. The only thing on bringing the car to the fortress is that ice and water surrounds the entire area. Since you see Lex's snowmobile drive close to the fortress then turns into a raft, there are no trails or roads.

[snoopkryptodog]

You ask the impossible (for the most part). With the exception of Superman bringing a car to the fortress (a scene I plan on doing even though I'm getting negative comments from it), and Jor-el talking to Supes about disobeying him (something I also did that was also met with negative criticism), I don't see how most of this could be done.[/quote]

No worries, Tyler - I'm certainly not asking any editor or fan cutter to solve these problems. Editing can't always save source material. I would like to point out that some of this has already been achieved ...

-Editing out "new powers"; fan cutters have replaced the Cellophane S with heat vision; recut scenes to get rid of levitation and so forth - most of this has been accomplished; an example ... www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5tRz-ojwDo
-the revised turning back time scene, wherein shockwaves come from earth and crack the phantom zone was once posted on supermancinema - the shockwaves themselves shattered the PZ, rather than detonate the XK101
-I'd have to try it, but the bully scene might work if the bit with the stool was cut out; in a revised sequence, Supes gets hit in the gut, puts the bully on the tray and shoves him across the counter; however, if there's a pesky shot of the broken stool when Supes lifts the bully, you're right - there's no way to change this footage credibly
-we'll have to see how you do with the car, though a later poster has made a good point - the landscape around the fortress doesn't permit driving and much of the film leaves the audience to fill in plot holes; the best solution might've been a rewrite and reshoot and that's obviously not happening
-as for the rest, I agree that it's probably too difficult to edit credibly, but there may be sneaky ways, not proposed here, to plug up these plotholes - suggestions are welcome!

I'm debating doing my own fancut and it would be great to find a way to fix some of these more nagging mistakes - in fact, much of your work has already pointed the way.

[Rod]

It is not logical to me (in the movie logic perspective) that turning back time would cause effects in space.
I mean, physically, crashing the PZ, not in the space-time continuum.

To talk about this is impracticable but I always assumed that Supes spinning the Earth was just a metaphor for time travel and that the Earth was not reversed per se otherwise what happenned with the moon and the sun that he didnt spin backwards?

[adam1975]

First post everyone so be gentle!

I have read with interest on the various forums over the years about fan cuts and ultimate S II cuts.....

My point is this,is it possible to have a definitive cut and "finished" film that EVERYONE is happy with ?

Surely the answer is a big fat no right ?
Lets say the mighty Seleutron goes into business with Warners and the "Ultimate Superman II As It Was Meant To be Seen Cut" DVD is rolled out into the shops.
It wouldnt have been out a day before the internet is buzzing with comments such as "Why didnt they use X scene here"
or Why is that shot used or that plot hole not covered up"etc etc
Surely whatever comes out,assuming anything ever does,is doomed to failure simply because there are so many different strands and viewpoints to pull together?

Is Superman II on a permanent hiding to nothing ?

[adam1975]

Im as pleased as anyone to see new Superman material,man,I love Chris Reeve as Superman as much as any one here,but.....

Arnt we just creating bastardised "Frankenstein" films,with bits cobbled together from all over ?

Does it do the original films a disservice?
Maybe we should let them be ?
Not being disrespectful to anyone on here at all,some ingenious stuff and its beyond me hows it done,but ??

[atp]

Nov 15, 2010 21:16:10 GMT -5 TylerDurden389 said:

You ask the impossible (for the most part).

Nothing is impossible these days. Computer technology is very advanced and we can now create dinosaurs, liquid metal Terminators and a whole host of other effects.

With the exception of Superman bringing a car to the fortress (a scene I plan on doing even though I'm getting negative comments from it), and Jor-el talking to Supes about disobeying him (something I also did that was also met with negative criticism), I don't see how most of this could be done.

It can be done in CGI please.

[TylerDurden389]

Nov 16, 2010 12:44:42 GMT -5 atp said:

It can be done in CGI please.

I'll assume your "please" is directed at me this time. I've already said what I'll be doing for my next cut. Once CAM gets back to me, if he gives me the "ok" I'll post his clips of "CGI villains Rule the World".

[TylerDurden389]

You gotta remember, these debates such as the ones you bring up, is only among the hardcore fans like us who ALSO have experience with doing the exact same thing they can do in a studio (creating special effects and editing). However, the majority of people who would see this new version (be it Selutron's or whatever) aren't as critical as we are. The whole point Sel is trying to get WB to revisit S2 is so that, even if we don't get a "perfect" version that we can all agree on (first of all, you can nitpick about any movie no matter how great it is, Godfather, Star Wars, etc..) we will have something better than what's available to the public.

This way, 30 years from now, 50 years from now, etc... People will only know of the "ultimate" version, and will dismiss both the plot-hole campy driven theatrical version, and the plot-hole poorly edited Donner Cut. The file case can finally be closed. We're discussing a film that is now 30 years old. Don't you think it's about time we finally plugged up the hole? The Donner Cut was supposed to plug up the hole, but instead dug the hole even deeper.

[Jimbo]

Nov 16, 2010 11:56:34 GMT -5 adam1975 said:

My point is this,is it possible to have a definitive cut and "finished" film that EVERYONE is happy with ?

As far as making the most people happy, the closest version of the movie is probably the ABC cut.

It is impossible to make a cut everyone would like. One has to weigh unfinished Donner footage versus finished (but undesired) Lester footage.

[adam1975]

Nov 16, 2010 13:48:29 GMT -5 TylerDurden389 said:

You gotta remember, these debates such as the ones you bring up, is only among the hardcore fans like us who ALSO have experience with doing the exact same thing they can do in a studio (creating special effects and editing). However, the majority of people who would see this new version (be it Selutron's or whatever) aren't as critical as we are. The whole point Sel is trying to get WB to revisit S2 is so that, even if we don't get a "perfect" version that we can all agree on (first of all, you can nitpick about any movie no matter how great it is, Godfather, Star Wars, etc..) we will have something better than what's available to the public.

This way, 30 years from now, 50 years from now, etc... People will only know of the "ultimate" version, and will dismiss both the plot-hole campy driven theatrical version, and the plot-hole poorly edited Donner Cut. The file case can finally be closed. We're discussing a film that is now 30 years old. Don't you think it's about time we finally plugged up the hole? The Donner Cut was supposed to plug up the hole, but instead dug the hole even deeper.

Fair points......
Can anyone tell me a bit about (or point me to..) why the Donner Cut is so badly done ?
Maybe im easily pleased,but I thought it was ok ??

[Knight]

When you realise what Superman II should have been but we got given Lester's Cut. Then time went on,we craved a Donner Cut, but it ran short of our hopes.

Lester's cut had the god awful humour but tighter editing and no Brando. The Donner Cut gave us some beautiful footage,sloppy editing and poor effects. So,with both available too us, we fans have been trying to get best from both worlds.

In between both releases is an excellent film. In my cut I go for Donner's concept as much as possible but with Lester's tighter editing.

A lot of the choices Donner's editor Michael Thau went for were very questionable. The toilet humour in TDC is just awful. Make another film and have the humour,leave it OUT of Superman II. And,the editing is really poor and some scenes suffer as a result.

example:

President ''I will kneel before you if it will save lives''

Zod ''It will,starting with your own''.

Great,the tension is there,your in it then this happens...

Ursa (voice double) ''What a backward planet this place must be. Where the men wear the ribbons and the jewellery.''

totally takes you out of the moment. Lester's didn't have this of course and works better for it.

Poor line readings throughout were a let down too. Watch the cuts within the same few days and the better choices stand out. It could be say,Donner footage,daily planet jump with the music from the water fall jump in the Lester cut. You will note what scenes from both cuts work well together and what don't.

[adam1975]

Dickie Donner....some interesting points.Cheers.
Not sure why they used Chris Reeve`s very squeeky "Fatheeerrr",in the F/O/S scene,although Im sure this has been noted and discussed many times!

[Knight]

^

This is just one of the flaws we have been discussing here for a while. You get the idea,TDC has many poor choices like this. Bad choice of line readings throughout.

So,when I cut my II together I always option Reeve's shout from Lester's cut,he matured more as an actor by the time he done reshoots for II.

[atp]

I have had 4 years to come to terms with the Donner Cut, and while it's not the perfect film, I now realise that was never Mr Thau's brief, and it's unfair to criticize him.

He wasn't setting out to make the perfect blend of Lester and Donner. His job was to show the film that Donner would have made.

[Valentine Smith]

Nail. Head. ATP.

[Knight]

Thau was,I have said before a hired hand. There is a lot that doesn't sit well with me with TDC,that said there is also the other lot that I love.

Fav scenes in TDC: the DP jump (after a little edit of course) all the stuff on the moon,all the scenes in East Huston,taking out all of Lester's humour during the city fight. The scene in TDP prior to the villains arrival too. Also, I love Lex and Otis' escape,that's excellent. Moreover,I really like the final scenes in the FOS and the scene were Superman and Lois kiss 'don't ever forget' scene.

Looping Brando dialogue over Lester's footage during the de-powering.

Slightly editing the re-powering scene so Superman says his 'I failed' bit to Jor-El and not to himself.

The first time we see Brando is great,although excellent after editing out talk of trees,and long and terrible battles.

I'm greatfull that TDC is out and that footage is available for us.

I just believe that some of the choices to use 'new scenes' and lines instead of existing ones from TLC was petty.

What was so wrong with Reeve's ''I'm not a coward,Zod'' in TLC that Thau opted for that other reading of the same line in TDC?

Example,Why couldn't that background plate in SII were Superman takes that elevator into space be used again during the recap? It was perfect-instead we got that awful shot of the sun over earth.

[Knight]

Just been watching the documentary discs,I would love the audio of Terrence Stamp saying ''...you bastard!" looped over either Zod flying back as Non and Ursa are about to hurl the bus at Superman...just as Supes looks up at Zod,brilliant!

or in the FOS right before Superman says ''I expect better manners from my guests,Zod''

haha,excellent

;D

[TylerDurden389]

Dude, those are AWESOME ideas. I actually watched the documentaries looking for footage to use (as CAM did), but I never bothered to really LISTEN to dialogue with the thought of perhaps using the audio to put into the film. Now I'm gonna have to go back and listen again lol.

Thanks!! And if you have any other ideas PLEASE share them. I'll be sure to give you credit if I decide to use them in my cut.

[atp]

Nov 17, 2010 13:12:58 GMT -5 TylerDurden389 said:

Thanks!! And if you have any other ideas PLEASE share them. I'll be sure to give you credit if I decide to use them in my cut.

You're welcome. Glad I could help.

I do have some other ideas and I will share them please.

[Knight]

Bump SII upto a 12a cert and Terrence Stamp's audio would work a treat.

I can't decide where it would be better...used in S2 as I said earlier or during the trail in STM as Jor-El walks away from the villains instead of ''your heirs''

he shouts....

....''you bastard!!!'' lol ;D