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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 21, 2011 4:22:10 GMT -5
Agreed! One critic pointed out how the trial could have been cut out & simply used as a flashback in the second film, where there was a payoff to it. (Personally, I liked that there was at least one other scene to Krypton besides the council meet/putting the baby into the ship- I wouldn't have minded if there were even more)
It's a pity that Donner/Baird didn't just put the freeing of the criminals at the end of STM- in thinking about it, it's just one minute long, and it STILL could have come right after the time reversal (after all, with each time reversal in both pics, not everything- only selected things get changed in time, apparently).
The script, if I remember right, has Superman fly by the camera at the end.... then pan to the stars & the missile cracks it open.
If Donner/Baird left that ONE minute of film in STM--- then it's interesting to me to speculate how different SII would have been- for sure, the whole Paris opening would have no real purpose (and maybe not written & shot) and the money/time could have been spent elsewhere (possibly the Metro battle).
But then again..... interesting to wonder if Lester said 'no', how the next director would have proceeded to finish. If it was a puppet director & not Lester- then I wonder if Ilya Salkind would have wanted that director to more closely follow the serious tone of the Mank script?
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Post by joey m on Feb 22, 2011 22:36:14 GMT -5
It probably would have been pretty much the same. Lester was determined to start the movie off with a goofy incident of some kind.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 23, 2011 2:45:08 GMT -5
Speaking of whom, although I LOVED LOVED LOVED Lester's "Three Musketeers", I finally caught "Hard Day's Night" which was supposed to be Lester's claim to fame- and was pretty underwhelmed- both by the result & by the process, in listening to how he made it.
Although "Hard Day's Night" is supposed to be a classic- in watching it, if this were his only film to look at before deciding whether or not he should take over Superman- I would have thought: "Man, this is the WRONG guy to take over this film."
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Post by Valentine Smith on Feb 23, 2011 8:45:51 GMT -5
See, I LOVE Hard Day's Night, but yeah...it's not the kind of thing to sell me on the guy directing Superman!
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Post by atp on Feb 23, 2011 12:17:10 GMT -5
Although "Hard Day's Night" is supposed to be a classic- in watching it, if this were his only film to look at before deciding whether or not he should take over Superman- I would have thought: "Man, this is the WRONG guy to take over this film." Most films that are supposed to be "a classic" are actually crap. |
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Feb 23, 2011 16:59:54 GMT -5
The never ending question how does one end two?
A. Superman leaves Lois on the balcony, ''well.there he goes again...up up and away''. Superman turns world back. No backwards footage,just continuous shot of Superman flying around one way and then the other.
Then have the full taxi/Lois scene followed by scene in TDP,cutting out Lois stubbing out the cigarette (that's bloody awful Lester,wtf you thinking???) and have the 'do you mind if I give you a bit of criticism' bit,play scene until Clark says ''Just friends hu?'' . Then as Lois is sat behind her desk cut to ''Superman Takes Day Off!'' from TDC and then Superman flying the flag to the White House...to credits?
or
B. He leaves Lois at the balcony same DC scene line reading as above. Superman flys away.
TDP morning after,Lester scene Clark talks to Lois...scene as is until Lois gets a cup of water completely cut out the part were they both sit down that ''doctor's wife'' / ''tough act to follow'' bit. So,Lois gets her water and then cut to a shot of Clark behind Lois then play scene as is ''I don't know what to say'' / ''just tell me you love me'' amnesia kiss....all the way until Laueen leaves Lois. Lois shrugs and starts to type cut to ''Superman Takes Day Off'' flying the flag.white house,credits...
which one of the two do you think? I like them both.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 23, 2011 17:40:00 GMT -5
Both ideas you have are interesting.... I agree that the tricky thing about following the balcony scene is that - how do you 'reset' the relationship without being a rather cloying, (which is how I found the Lester scene)?
The idea of using the taxi/orange juice scene of 'just friends' is interesting..... first time I've heard that idea used. I like that better than the 'memory kiss' Lester scene, which always felt awkward and shot terribly.
The second idea seems pretty effective, too, though I've always disliked just how cheap that scene looked under Lester (couidn't that conversation have happened somewhere that looked a LITTLE nicer looking than that office? The rooftop of the Daily Planet? The lobby?
;p
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Post by Jimbo on Feb 23, 2011 17:45:46 GMT -5
Donner and Mank were willing to destroy the ending of Superman II simply because they thought the "toothpaste back into the tube" shot was really funny.  Way to ruin a movie, guys. |
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Feb 23, 2011 17:47:15 GMT -5
That's why I cut out a lot of Lois' lines in Lester's DP scene with Clark and Lois. Too much,espc after the scene of Superman and Lois outside the FOS 'don't ever forget'.
Lester's set of TDP Lois' office is awful,looks really dour.
I still can't decide which one to use out of the two :/
I'am rather keen on the more jovial ending of the taxi/constructive criticism scene....
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Feb 23, 2011 21:59:05 GMT -5
Well, obviously the dialogue in Lester's "next morning" scene (being married to a doctor...) is the same dialogue from Donner's FOS goodbye. Sure the DC omitted some of the dialogue we all remember from the RIC, but there's it is recycled again. Just like Lois figuring it out ("beginning to get the picture"), as well "being more aggressive" (blank bullets scene), and even Reeve saying "Look Lois I-" and Lois cutting him off is recycled by Lester. Only the context of the dialogue is different. In Donner's scene she is more accepting of their fate as a couple. In Lester's she's having none of it.
TBH Dickie, watching the RIC version of the FOS goodbye, followed by the balcony goodbye scene and listening to the added dialogue, the alternate music, and the alternate line readings, I gotta say it sure seems more upbeat and positive. Even though Lois is crying, you can tell she is more accepting of the truth of the situation. So there's an alternate ending idea for ya to work with.
Though I must add, using the taxicab gag and the scene in her office as a new ending is interesting. Sorta like how my cut ends with the DP Paris scene. A friend of mine who works in film noticed that the DP Paris scene looked more like the beginning of the movie. He's never seen Superman 2 in any shape or form. So it was great getting a "fresh perspective" from him since the first time he's seeing S2 was MY version lol. But either way, he could tell the scene looked out of place. So I think if you used that scene in your ending, it simply wouldn't fit.
Do it if you want, but all of us are so familiar with this film that it would be tough for us to swallow lol.
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Feb 24, 2011 17:12:54 GMT -5
I still haven't seen the RIC,think am getting a copy mailed to me soon though. I can't wait to look for the subtle differences between LC and DC.
Can anyone help me, I have womble mpeg video wizard 5.0 andI can't for the life of me successfully burn a project onto a dvd. It's a vicious circle of dead ends. Windows can't play it,or if it does it's only a few seconds of the project. I have tried several ways but to no avail.
Am a total douche when it comes to anything like this,if some one could explain what I have to do in order to burn a project in layman's terms I would appreciate it. lol
I haven't watched any of my edits on my tv at all,total pain.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Feb 24, 2011 21:07:28 GMT -5
I use the same program. When you are ready to make the dvd (meaning you have all the video files in the project one after the other) you hit the button that says "DVD". It's next to the big red button (record button) on the bottom right corner of the program. Then you make the menus, chapter, etc.. set it up however you want. Then hit "encode". It takes a while, but when it's done you'll have your .vob files. The folder will say "Video_TS", as well as a 2nd folder titled "Audio_TS". Then you download the program "imgburn" off it's official website, and create an image file (.iso file) by clicking the "build" option. Then you use the same program and click the "write" option and put the blank dvd in and it'll burn it. Check youtube for a visual explanation. I'm sure someone can explain this better than me lol.
It's a lot of steps but once you've done it as many times as I have it becomes like anything else. I can do it with my eyes closed at this point lol.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Feb 24, 2011 21:19:05 GMT -5
I am firmly of the mind that the ONLY proper way to end Superman II is WITH Lois knowing. No memory kiss. No turning back time. You LEAVE that bitch crying on the roof, "There he goes, up, up and away". It's bittersweet. It's ballsy. It gives those two movies CLOSURE, which neither of them really have. And let's face it, it DESERVES closure, so we can pretend that III and IV didn't happen.
And then, to drive home that point (and to take a little of the sting out of it), we bring the flag back to the White House, do the flyover, end credits. Diner/Bully scene after the credits.
(and yes, yes...I realize that ending it like that invalidates Superman Returns as well, but let's face it, Superman Returns, no matter how hard it wants to be, isn't a real sequel to the Donnerverse. It's its own thing. Which is fine)
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Post by Knight on Feb 24, 2011 22:11:49 GMT -5
That's not a bad idea,leaving that her in tears,hmmm. Interesting.
Thanks,TD! I shall give it (yet another) go haha.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Feb 24, 2011 23:19:06 GMT -5
I can only figure that Lois in tears is what Selutron meant for his ending leaves the audience in tears.
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Feb 25, 2011 11:49:16 GMT -5
I 100% agree but IMO if it isn't in the theatrical cut, it doesn't exist.
Oh dear, some people won't like that! Again, I 100% agree. A sequel 26 years later with the actors looking much younger? Fail.
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Post by atp on Feb 25, 2011 12:59:33 GMT -5
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Post by ye5man on Feb 25, 2011 13:02:11 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Mar 5, 2011 9:02:20 GMT -5
...Just finished watching the RIC of II. Excellent.
I could go with that,minus a few things...tourists with their cameras,cut aways to people watching the TV etc,naff.
I will never be satisfied with any cut I do now after seeing what was included here. I wish all the footage was cleaned and available in the same format. I'd phone in sick at work, take my phone off the hook,lock the door...not go out for a week and finish Superman II. haha.
Liked all the extra stuff in prison,concord,east houston,Lex and Eve escape...the snow mountain backdrop of said escape. ALL the Donner deleted scenes edited into the film that don't stand out or look poor. Lex and Eve in the FOS,works well...so much better espc the end of their scene in FOS.
Like also,White House attack,Lex at W/H, the fight in metropolis...more Zod,flying shots,reactions,longer scenes...excellent. All the stuff in FOS Lex and Superman extra bits,why isn't this available on previous releases?
Lois on the balcony,aww.... brilliant. Why the fudge did Thau loop Margo out in the TDC??? wtf? cop out!
Include Brando,re-cut a few things here and there, have Lois on balcony as in RIC and have ''Well,there he goes,again. Up,up and away'' include TDC DP scene before villains arrive...etc etc throughout.
Was a flying scene from STM really used in SII? Is that the ending that was part of a broadcast,Jimmy and Clark in the DP camera/bully scene. Even though Chris was wearing a different color suit?
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Mar 5, 2011 13:56:50 GMT -5
IMO, the RIC cut is the only reason why The Donner Cut ever saw the light of day. We all remember seeing these scenes on tv, but wondered where they were on the video tape. To me, the RIC (or in my case, the ABC brodcast, which was just a few minutes shorter) is the DEFINITIVE version of S2. Until my fan cut is complete, I'll still watch the RIC once in a while.
In a lot of ways, I do believe that when fans wrote in to WB over the years (myself included), a dvd quality version of the RIC, along with the Brando scenes as a supplemental (or maybe added in depending on the fans tastes), was really all we wanted.
Ok, put it simply, the PERFECT Donner Cut DVD would've been as follows:
Disc 1: RIC with Brando scenes re-instated, Lester humor toned down/removed where applicable. With minor fixes to special effects (Zod blowing the fire from the flamethrower with his breath onto the Diner in Idaho was definitely an improvement).
Disc 2: All the alternate takes that the DC used, including the different ending. With commentary from Donner and Mank.
Sounds pretty simple if you ask me. Anyway, a few things I gotta point out about the RIC now that you've seen it:
1. Don't you just love those extra bits of dialogue from the Donner scenes that, for whatever reason were not included in the DC? For example, before the villains fly off the moon, Zod says to Ursa "And you will have everything you want". Ursa says "Men. To KILL!!" and Zod says "And I will LEAD!!" Also, I loved the added bit of dialogue from Lois after Supes destroys the FOS. Sure it's pretty much the same dialogue from Lester's amnesia kiss scene, but it was worded better and given a more positive context. Plus the alternate music really makes it seem like Lois will be ok with knowing his secret.
2. As for added Lester scenes, most of them don't really add much (do we really need 30 seconds of a guy pulling the film out of his camera?) but the "deleted scenes" (Supes cooks a soufle' and Non kills the boy) were nice additions. Notice how the DC did actually use a few RIC shots. Specifically, the RIC version of the car when they were driving to the Diner and the shot of Clarks' feet as he walks through the snow.
3. This gets it's own addition because we all remember it so well. The concord scene. Sure the effects weren't all there (though if it had been included, Thau would've fixed it up) but it sure was a great Superman moment huh? If they had used it in the Donner Cut, I'd imagine it would've been used either for 1) on his way to Metropolis after getting his powers back, or 2) on his way to go beat up the bully at the end. TBH, when you think about how much the DC became a "more Donner footage, less Lester footage" project, I'm surprised they didn't replace Superman getting the flowers at the tropics with this scene instead.
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Post by Knight on Mar 5, 2011 15:14:25 GMT -5
All the neat little changes,extra lines are what makes this a treat. 1. Lex and Otis in prison... (something about how poor Otis' brain is) Lex wanting his ''record back,tonight'') 2. Mission controls extra few lines,hated them two in TLC,they were more tolerable in TDC,really enjoyed them in the RIC. -amazing what a few extra lines ad to a scene. 3. Yea,Ursa's threatening exchange with Zod before they fly off,excellent. 4. (just remembered) the longer Orange Juice/friends scene,a few more lines from Lois and Clark,one or two shots here and there. 5. The sound FX of Lex grabbing Otis in the prison grounds,good. 6. mentioned the correct background plates in RIC of Lex and Eve in the balloon (unlike night bgp's Thau used) 7. mentioned the approach into FOS,a mix of DC and LC and the end of the FOS and going south. 8. the few shots of Clark and Lois in hotel suite. (not sure I like the part lifted from STM flying though) 9. The whole extra bits in East Houston is so much more better,good additions. 10. Loved Superman's scene with Lex, Lex ''I'am full of goodness...I just haven't used any of it yet.'' The way Superman tries to walk away from him. Lex ''I just dont know what to believe anymore''. 11. Lois and Superman ''don't forget scene, I agree is excellent here. I also noticed different cuts/takes of Superman in FOS while listening to Lara's warnings/advice too,very interesting. Zod,Ursa and Lois' extra lines in FOS...excellent. Lester in all fairness short changes himself by cutting out some of his own footage and left in complete rubbish throughout the film. Would definitely include the choncord scene right after the recap/opening credits before TDP opening, Lois drawing conclusions. All in all...a worthy SII at almost 2 1/2 hours. That with the 3 hr STM,all have that. 5 1/2 hours of Superman,yea!!!  |
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Post by Knight on Mar 14, 2011 8:40:25 GMT -5
Why was Stamp's voice lowered in this? it's Really bad in the return to TDP after destroying Metropolis and again in the FOS. Strange choices. 
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Mar 14, 2011 10:16:43 GMT -5
I like the idea of lowering the pitch of his voice (one good idea from Lester), but not how a lot of the lines were executed. Even "Kill the rest. Starting with him" is delivered better in the DC, but Stamp's voice is so different. HOWEVER, I do make an exception for CERTAIN lines that Lester made him deliver in a comedic tone, rather than an evil one. "Why do you say this to me...etc" being the most obvious. For lines that I preferred in the DC, I simply lowered the pitch of his voice myself for my fan cut. It messes with the music a bit, but it's worth it IMO. Don't know why Thau didn't do that himself.
One thing to note while watching the RIC is certain lines that were added in did NOT have the lower voice, and some lines that are in the theatrical have different takes. The most notable being:
"Did you really think we would give up our advantage? No!! The son of Jor-el will be my slave. Forever. If not, the millions of earthlings you protect, will pay for your defiance. Beginning with, this one." In the RIC it's Stamps natural voice, and it was delivered better there. It sounded more evil. In the theatrical it comes off as comical. So, like many things with S2, there's always that "Which one do I prefer? I like one thing about this version, but not the other. And I like one thing about that version, but not the other".
Also, before they fire their finger beams at Supes in the FOS at the end, in the RIC Zod says "We must combine our energy" instead of "We must combine our strength". Again, note that it's Stamps natural voice.
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Post by Knight on Mar 14, 2011 12:17:18 GMT -5
Yea,all the way throughout you mentally note which version of lines you prefare.
I like his (Stamps) readings in TDC.
Why was Reeve looped out during the line ''Somehow I just can't hear you.Zod''. I wonder. It is leagues better than that awful -''I'am not a coward,Zod'' that Thau used in his cut.
If there was a way of degrading the DC PQ so it matches the RIC I would make my little tweaks and changes here and there.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 14, 2011 12:19:26 GMT -5
Having the actors lower the pitch of their own voice is one thing, but slowing it down/speeding it up artificially.... I did it once for a voiceover for a line or two to mix/match the screen test performance of Reeve's with the 'Lois jumps in the water' dialogue, but other than that- I never considered wanting to change Stamp's voice artificially- though ultimately, it so depends on what feels comfortable to the ear, and what takes you out of the film.
The logic behind Thau's choices is so odd to me, it could fill pages talking about it. But in this case, I can only imagine that either Thau might have thought slowing it down was interfering too much with an original performance (though getting bad voice doubles was FAR worse imo) or - well - maybe it just sounded too weird for his ear, I imagine. That's one thing I'll forgive Thau for. That part is pretty subjective.
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