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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 30, 2019 19:56:38 GMT -5
I think there's a twofold problem with famous comics characters & keeping them going:
#1: The VOLUME of stories that the comic company wants to put out-
#2: Uncertainty of any 'big plan' other than reboot after several years.
With the movies, I actually thought it might have been interesting if there was a George Lucas-like "Star Wars" approach....
That is-
* ONE person in creative charge-
* A beginning, middle, and end plan for the main characters
* Multiple movie contracts for the actors
* Years between movies or REALLY careful shooting back to back
* Make it an event and try to exhaust or maximize the material so 'everything is done' when it's done
In the end, as long as the quality is there- that's fine.... but what looked so great in the two movie Superman scripts by Mank was that (except for perhaps Brainiac, Supergirl, Legion, and death of Superman)-
a GIANT chunk of the comic book stories up to that point I felt had been captured on film as if it were done like a movie biography of Ghandi by Donner.
That approach kind of happened with Batman with the first two movies- but botched by the end... even though Nolan surprisingly said he was only doing one movie at a time with no idea of a sequel.
Same with Raimi and his first two Spiderman movies= which, as we chatted about- also had the same terrible botched third film to end on.
(How odd that both worshipped the Donner Superman films, and ended up with their versions of a botched 3rd Superman film)
Anyhow-
In looking at the big picture, I guess it is good to have seen that model 'swapped out' for the MCU- and see all the gold that was reaped from that experiment.... but at the same time, it's still a bit sad that
the 'meh' Marvel movies aren't a little better even when they were exploding (Capt. Marvel and Ant-man were giantly underwhelming to me).... but it'll be interesting to see how much further Feige and the MCU can go,
or if they're just getting started.
(Personally, the two heroes I didn't want Marvel to screw up, they screwed up in casting right off the bat- Iron Fist and Shang-chi are TERRIBLE casting & the original Captain Marvel was bypassed for the Carol Danvers version. So most of the heroes I was looking forward to are kind of already done.)
With DC's side:
* Honestly, could care less about Aquaman.
* Superman movies look really dead now, if they're doing a tv series with an actor I feel wrong for it.
* Wonder Woman I have doubts about, even if it was a good first movie--- just not enough interesting source material imo.
* CW and Netflix tv shows are 'so-so'
* Pattinson's Batman seems like it's already moving away from the original comics with the casting-
At this point- my interest goes back to appreciating the Donner films EVEN more and what Puzo/ Donner originally intended- to really 'fully flesh out' all the Superman material. He might have gotten excited about more Superman movies after, but
it seemed like Puzo wanted to write the heck out of it- and Donner once he got going, put everything into it even if it came originally as a job offer.
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Post by Metallo on Oct 31, 2019 8:54:14 GMT -5
Things change and sometimes you’ve got to be willing to give new things a try. If you like it or not that’s up to you. But it’s a new era and I’m going to at least give it a chance. I had doubts about the mcu and look how that turned out. I’d still take the MCUs worst over the dceus worst any day. If you’re expecting an exact recreation of the comics you’re going to be disappointed CAM but you’ve got to know it never has been and never will be that way. STM certainly wasn’t a recreation of the comics but I don’t expect any new version to be an exact recreation of STM either. That’s not fair to anyone.
One guy in charge of everything works if you’ve got a Kevin Feige but when it’s a Zack Snyder it’s a disaster. When it’s an Ike Perlmutter or Jeph Loeb or Kathleen Kennedy it’s a crapshoot. It depends on the person.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 31, 2019 13:46:33 GMT -5
Things change and sometimes you’ve got to be willing to give new things a try. If you like it or not that’s up to you. But it’s a new era and I’m going to at least give it a chance. I had doubts about the mcu and look how that turned out. I’d still take the MCUs worst over the dceus worst any day. If you’re expecting an exact recreation of the comics you’re going to be disappointed CAM but you’ve got to know it never has been and never will be that way. STM certainly wasn’t a recreation of the comics but I don’t expect any new version to be an exact recreation of STM either. That’s not fair to anyone. One guy in charge of everything works if you’ve got a Kevin Feige but when it’s a Zack Snyder it’s a disaster. When it’s an Ike Perlmutter or Jeph Loeb or Kathleen Kennedy it’s a crapshoot. It depends on the person. It's more of whether or not I'm attracted to certain types of material being adapted in the first place, though. The brilliance of the Donner version is that it was a compression and- improvement over the source material, so I was okay with the changes. It made the adaptation (intentionally) somewhat timeless--- Raimi openly said the same tone was intended with his approach to Spiderman, so that there wouldn't be too many references to things that could be dated immediately. With the newer stuff... Filmmakers have/had a chance to choose which era of comic books to adapt. As an example, I don't mind that the Ultimates' version of Nick Fury was used.... but it came at a loss of the kickarse Steranko Nick Fury. (Though they didn't have to--- they could have had Steranko Fury be the grandfather). With Superman- I'm of the belief that if you're going to believe a guy can fly, then the audience might go with other things like the Daily Planet- perhaps modify a bit (Cable station or a cable station that decided to do both a newspaper and a cable station)... Also, that a guy who flies wears red underwear over his costume. Maybe audiences couldn't go with it.... but I'm sure that worries about what audiences could and couldn't believe even came prior to STM's release. Batman can be done 'realistically'.... Superman, imo- will always be a fantasy- if darkness or edge is brought in- then you need a writer with the smarts of ALan Moore or Geoff Johns to make it still have the spirit of the traditional SUperman comics imo... IF that's wanted. I'm one of those who believes if you do a remake- then it must be 'as good- or better, if you choose to make differences'. Burton's Batman had great elements in it, but Nolan's Batman Begins/ TDK preserves and expands upon the original comics. On the flip side, Nolan's TDKR had some good ideas, but changed many things for the worse. I don't expect exact replications, but it also depends on what bias I have.... for Aquaman, I wasn't that attached to the source material. Guardians neither. So I'm more flex. With Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc.--- I grew up loving the spirit of those comics, so certain things I want preserved regardless of how ridiculous it could end up being. All preference...not necessarily logical or realistic, but I think after seeing things translated so well, I think it is possible.... |
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Post by Metallo on Nov 10, 2019 18:12:34 GMT -5
The different between then and now is that “then” it was wide open as far as what you could do. So many things had never been tried so it was fresh to the screen. We needed more traditional takes adapted. Now while we have the best technology to make these stories happen it couldn’t have come at a worse time as far as the audience. Now there’s so much competition that almost nothing can build a large stable audience. Everything’s been done so they have to try something different. We got every “traditional” take on Perry White I can imagine so I was fine casting Fishburne. We’ve seen the whole secret identity thing and will they won’t they with Lois and Clark that I’m fine trying something else. I’m fine with a kid. More than anything now it’s a question of quality. I’ve seen peter hiding his secret from aunt may and Martha Wayne getting shot in the face. I don’t need to see it again for a while. I’m fine with modernizing things as long as it works. Fury is a perfect example. It works. We did get a classic fury in Hasselhoff but too bad it was awful.
The only time I’m against it is a pointless change like Sandman killing uncle Ben or Krypton not blowing up. Unless it’s an Elseworlds type story that leans into that...why? Joker works because it leans into doing its own thing. It’s not trying to be the mainstream long running adaptation.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 12, 2019 1:52:34 GMT -5
The different between then and now is that “then” it was wide open as far as what you could do. So many things had never been tried so it was fresh to the screen. We needed more traditional takes adapted. Now while we have the best technology to make these stories happen it couldn’t have come at a worse time as far as the audience. Now there’s so much competition that almost nothing can build a large stable audience. Everything’s been done so they have to try something different. We got every “traditional” take on Perry White I can imagine so I was fine casting Fishburne. We’ve seen the whole secret identity thing and will they won’t they with Lois and Clark that I’m fine trying something else. I’m fine with a kid. More than anything now it’s a question of quality. I’ve seen peter hiding his secret from aunt may and Martha Wayne getting shot in the face. I don’t need to see it again for a while. I’m fine with modernizing things as long as it works. Fury is a perfect example. It works. We did get a classic fury in Hasselhoff but too bad it was awful. The only time I’m against it is a pointless change like Sandman killing uncle Ben or Krypton not blowing up. Unless it’s an Elseworlds type story that leans into that...why? Joker works because it leans into doing its own thing. It’s not trying to be the mainstream long running adaptation. The timing kind of sucks, I agree. If another timeline, if Donner hadn't been fired & Superman was a continuing franchise like Star Wars- Then studios would have more embraced Batman faster--- and arguably Spiderman faster, X-men, etc.--- In that time frame, maybe the studios would have felt more confidence staying close to the bronze age /original versions of these characters. But--- with the fime frame of tech and studio support decades later--- now, either they'll go with adapting the "ultimates" (or dc equivalent).... and for some it might owrk, but with MOS- it was a disaster. I also feel, though, that regardless.... if you're adapting something that's already successful, you should have respect for the source material.... or a REALLY good reason to change it. "Token diversity casting" I have a mixed reaction to. On one hand, it's good to have a symbol that says the creators are on the side of a multiracial outlook- on the other hand, if the characters aren't fleshed out- I think is like standing in the middle of the road full of cars on both sides. It doesn't really gain points for those missing the original personalitites of characters nor does it really make one feel like they're really on screen in a meaningful way. If it's not a real individual character, then recasting ensemble characters for different races and not going deep with it is like putting a cardboard standee arbritrarily in the mix and patting oneself on the back too soon. |
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Post by Metallo on Nov 12, 2019 11:46:48 GMT -5
I’m not for casting someone just because they’re a minority but if the filmmaker has a clear different take on it where he wants a minority or they cast the best person regardless of race I have no problem with that. That’s why it’s an adaptation. If I want the comic exactly I’ll read the comic. I used to get worked up about that but I’m old now and the movie is it’s own thing. As long as it’s good I’m open to it.
I think as far as when these movies are being made the technology has finally caught it up to these stories in a way that can be done. We’re also In a time where overall the source material is more respected than ever. If Spider-Man had been made in 80s it would have been a dumpster fire.
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Post by Metallo on Nov 12, 2019 13:58:02 GMT -5
Side note: a twisted side of me wants the two Jimmys ti also meet  How about three?  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 12, 2019 14:35:07 GMT -5
Side note: a twisted side of me wants the two Jimmys ti also meet How about three? Part of me is of course excited at the extra efforts made in casting... the other part- if these are 'one second cameos'- like Rogue in DOFP.... wonders if it's just better to see when the show comes out, without expectation. These images are pumping up expectations, but I'm trying to downplay my own at this point--- but, tip of hat to the extra efforts, for sure... |
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Post by Metallo on Nov 12, 2019 15:51:20 GMT -5
Some cameos will be blink and you’ll miss them. Others will be substantial. I’m guessing a lot of these will be people looking up at red skies as the multiverse is destroyed by anti matter. That’ll give it more scope. I can’t imagine they cast Robert Wuhl for a substantial role and that’s ok. But don’t make them all throw away. I don’t think they will but each actor and characters her should be used a certain way depending on the story. If you got Routh and Welling back don’t waste them. Even if it’s small make it important. But to be fair to the producers Welling may have had ultimatums that limit what they can do with him. If his role is small and no suit that might be the best the producers could do. At least it does open up the door for future appearances by him down the road.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 13, 2019 2:48:41 GMT -5
Some cameos will be blink and you’ll miss them. Others will be substantial. I’m guessing a lot of these will be people looking up at red skies as the multiverse is destroyed by anti matter. That’ll give it more scope. I can’t imagine they cast Robert Wuhl for a substantial role and that’s ok. But don’t make them all throw away. I don’t think they will but each actor and characters her should be used a certain way depending on the story. If you got Routh and Welling back don’t waste them. Even if it’s small make it important. But to be fair to the producers Welling may have had ultimatums that limit what they can do with him. If his role is small and no suit that might be the best the producers could do. At least it does open up the door for future appearances by him down the road. Very true! I can sometimes forget what a giant feat it was sometimes to even get a cameo or a small bit schedulingwise & moneywise for a tv or movie--- I remember reading that Hawkeye/Jeremy Renner was set to be in "Captain America: Winter Soldier" (Would have been even better I think)- where Hawkeye had to face off with Cap, but Renner was too busy. Jump ahead to the novelty that was the first Avengers, then the joyous combo of old and new casts for X-men: DOFP, to the ultimate crossover with Avengers: Infinity War & Endgame. I do wonder at the end if there is a multiverse still or just one DC universe, though. I guess that's the big question for the finale.... but if Titans is on Netflix and is going to be included (?) then that's a giveaway that it's not going to end up one consistent happy smushed universe. Also, would love for there to be a feature or interview that elaborates more on the wheres and whys certain characters were still off limits. I read rumors that Wonder Woman's success may have made WB not want it 'tainted by tv'--- but if that's true, then how does that explain all the other properties that are intended for the bigscreen? Very weird. |
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Post by Metallo on Nov 13, 2019 21:15:28 GMT -5
I think right now Wonder Woman and the other big name characters operate on a different level than all the other ones as far as being allowed to be used on tv and film or not. Since the movie was such a hit and she was so well received they don’t want her drawing power diluted but other live action versions or to confuse the audience. It’s the same with Batman. They’ve got no plans for Superman so that’s why they’ve loosened the reigns there. I can’t imagine everything being collapsed down to a single universe either. That would be unworkable for a lot of reasons.
You’re right it’s true that sometimes real life and real world issues can get in the way of what they want to do. If an actor is unavailable or there are legal or corporate barriers in the way there’s not much that can be done.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 15, 2019 1:36:35 GMT -5
I think right now Wonder Woman and the other big name characters operate on a different level than all the other ones as far as being allowed to be used on tv and film or not. Since the movie was such a hit and she was so well received they don’t want her drawing power diluted but other live action versions or to confuse the audience. It’s the same with Batman. They’ve got no plans for Superman so that’s why they’ve loosened the reigns there. I can’t imagine everything being collapsed down to a single universe either. That would be unworkable for a lot of reasons. You’re right it’s true that sometimes real life and real world issues can get in the way of what they want to do. If an actor is unavailable or there are legal or corporate barriers in the way there’s not much that can be done. I'm actually really worried about whether or not Wonder Woman has other stories that are going to be interesting enough to follow. The first half was great for WW--- the second half of the movie fell flat imo. Outside of the first origin story material, the only idea that sounded intriguing past that for me was the era where she lost her powers & learned martial arts.... but even then, I can't think of any storylines I've sampled that were all that compelling in the comics... |
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Post by Metallo on Nov 27, 2019 18:47:41 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 28, 2019 4:50:47 GMT -5
That's awesome to read- Again, either I hope it's a great finale or the beginning of more appearances. |
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Post by Metallo on Nov 28, 2019 8:51:19 GMT -5
Overall Routh was probably as close as we last got to a classic depiction of Superman. HeII the last time an actor wore the trunks...was Routh. I think for a lot of people it’s like seeing an old friend again. It’s also cool seeing right being done by Routh. The last ten years or so should have been his time in the role but for various reasons that was taken away.
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Post by Metallo on Dec 9, 2019 16:17:15 GMT -5
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Post by Metallo on Dec 9, 2019 21:50:12 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 10, 2019 2:49:46 GMT -5
Gah! The Superman vs. Superman I definitely did NOT expect.... VERY nice! I think spoiled it for myself by watching this and the Tom Welling scene! Bummed that it's only one scene with Welling, but still... cool to get it at all.... but hoping already that there's tons of Routh as Superman in the series. Question is though: are these the best scenes of the series? I hope there's more with the 'old cast'!  |
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Post by Metallo on Dec 10, 2019 8:49:25 GMT -5
Did you see the whole episode, CAM? Its pretty heavy on Routh as Superman and Clark. There was a little more with Rouths Clark when they first get to earth 96. Nice callback for STM when Earth 96 Clark and Earth 38 Lois first meet. This Lois is so thirsty she wants ALL the Supermen. 😂
Guggenheim clearly loves the Superman movies because there are tons of references and Easter eggs in this episode alone. Kevin Conroy even drops a Gene Hackman/Luthor line. There are clear references SIII and SIV. The IV one is harder to spot but it’s unmistakable. But there’s also a huge reference to Superman Returns so Routh is definitely playing the same version of the character from that movie. He’s back in part three tonight so it’s not the last of him.
I loved Wellings scene. There was a ton packed into it. He and Cryer had a fantastic interplay. It was creepy and funny and touching all at once. I honestly liked Welling here more than in Smallville. He’s really grown as an actor.
I also thought Conroy was fantastic. Opposite to the take of old man Green Arrow in the future but just as tragic. This had to be the most angry bitter broken violent Bruce Wayne we’ve ever seen in live action. It was pretty intense. A cautionary tale that touched on things we saw in the Burton/Schumacher Batman films the Nolan films and the Snyder films with dialogue from all of them being used to great effect. This was a Batman that went to the extremes and went over the edge.
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Post by Metallo on Dec 10, 2019 11:39:11 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 10, 2019 15:16:52 GMT -5
Originally was going to wait for the dvds & view them all like I did the Marvel movies--- watching the setup/ etc. first.... but couldn't resist with Routh back as Supes to see it asap! Will put a review of the eps in a new thread... |
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Post by atp on Dec 10, 2019 15:20:23 GMT -5
Routh is the true successor to Reeve.
That interview above just highlights it.
The Cavill version was a failure.
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Post by atp on Dec 10, 2019 15:25:25 GMT -5
I wish they would reboot Superman again, but with Routh in the role.
Ignore SR and all the Snyder crap. And just start over now. He looks perfect.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 10, 2019 16:05:58 GMT -5
Routh is the true successor to Reeve. That interview above just highlights it. The Cavill version was a failure. Agreed!!! |
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Post by Metallo on Dec 10, 2019 19:12:30 GMT -5
Routh is the true successor to Reeve. That interview above just highlights it. The Cavill version was a failure. Poor Cavill...   |
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